Do you know who is building your guitar ?

Joined: 05 Mar 2012 Posts: 77 Location: Evanston, IL

Ran across this interesting article on guitar building in Korea and abusive labor practices by Cort. This is a very interesting read:

http://www.independentworldreport.com/2010/02/do-you-know-who-made-your-guitar/

It's a 1 minute read, worth your time. The basics of it is that Cort was using abusive labor practices and when the employees banded together under a union to ask for minimum wage, the Cort plant shut down in 2007 and moved all the work to Indonesia and China to continue their abusive labor practices there. As a further insult, the CEO of Cort has become a billionaire, one of the richest men in South Korea and the 125th richest man in the world.

So at that point you begin to wonder where your guitar was built and who is building it. Dean was having most of their mid-high range imports built in Korea by World Musical Instrument and then UnSung. Over the past few years Dean has been moving production away from Korea to Indonesia and China.

Take a wild guess which Indonesian plant Dean is using ? Does the beginning of the serial numbers "CT" tell you ?

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:24 pm

Buy American... Smile

The situation is disgraceful....

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

They sound like Apple.

Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 1368 Location: Lutz, Fl.

Wow. Thank you for posting this.

Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 8255 Location: Ontario, Canada

I used to buy a lot of import guitars but I've since stopped. It's unfortunate what's going on surrounding these builds. At the same time it's hard to buy used without inspecting the guitar by hand.

All the fake copies from these places are really affecting the used market as well. These days you can hardly buy a used guitar online and know its legit.

Joined: 04 Jun 2012 Posts: 347 Location: South-West Ohio

Very sad to read.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

A guy named Ryan Cook is building my guitar. I know so because I get photos and videos sent to me weekly on the process. Unless he's beating his meat like it owes him money there is no abuse going on. Laughing

My Gibson was made in the custom shop and there could have been abuse involved in its creation if being awesome is an abusive practice Laughing

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:32 pm

That's why I collect nothing but "Vintage Dean" guitars.... Only have a few foreign made in my collection. Quality and price can't be matched. When you see a vintage Dean buy it! Prices are usually always fair on the vintage ones. It's a shame that Deans garner little respect when compared to other makes. Treated like the "red headed" stepchild of guitars. Many of my vintage Deans that are 30 yrs old or older. I've only paid $500 - 1000 over what they cost when they were new. You can't say the same about some of the other manufacturers.

Joined: 01 Oct 2009 Posts: 474 Location: Michigan, USA

That seems to coincide with all of the quality control problems imported Deans had between 2007-2009 (roughly).

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:51 am

clmazza7 wrote:

Buy American... Smile

The situation is disgraceful....

^THIS^

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

Don't think for a minute that anything built in China is likely any different.

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 9602 Location: Portsmouth, VA

Just another reason I haven't bought anything but USA or MIJ guitars in years. Not only is the wood quality dubious (and the species misrepresented, more often than not), the frets soft, the hardware crappy, the electronics crappy, but those sweatshop conditions are deplorable. Sometimes the looks will catch my eye, and now and then they actually play and sound pretty good (like my old Squier Tele Custom 2), but still-it was made by miserable underpaid people under the gun.

Sorry if I come off like an elitist prick, but there it is. Yeah, I'm on my high horse.

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

I have a couple Korean Guitars, and an Indonesian Ibanez as well.

I'd LOVE to be able to buy USA guitars, but if I did, I'd be lucky to own 1 guitar!

USA guitars are for the most part overpriced. Sure you can get a great guitar custom built from someone like Carvin at a good price, but it seems like most of the rack USA guitars cost WAY more! THAT I don't get! Custom built to your wishes for $1000 or off the rack for sometimes 2-3 TIMES more! And it's not like Carvin makes junk.

Now if they would only make a neck through 6 string in 25.5" scale Mad

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:43 pm

Carvin is the ONLY company from which I would buy a USA guitar, and that's not very likely. I already know of a company that sells pretty nice imports for a really cheap price. These guitars are, or were, well made and finished, with decent hardware and GFS pickups. The guitars are sold by guitarfetish (dot) com.

Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 9602 Location: Portsmouth, VA

60srocker wrote:

Carvin is the ONLY company from which I would buy a USA guitar, and that's not very likely. I already know of a company that sells pretty nice imports for a really cheap price. These guitars are, or were, well made and finished, with decent hardware and GFS pickups. The guitars are sold by guitarfetish (dot) com.

Yeah, and MADE by poverty-level 3rd world workers, sucking fumes and dust all day.

Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 6291 Location: Jacksonville, TX.

Looks like my import buying days are over. But I won't be buying from Carvin either. I will either buy USA Dean , G&L, or Bernie Rico Jr. from now on. I have already committed to the Water V though. Cool

BTW Carvin is not all they claim to be as well.

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

EVERY Carvin Guitar I have seen/played have been absolutely flawless....save for the retarded 25" scale.

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:04 pm

formula73 wrote:

60srocker wrote:

Carvin is the ONLY company from which I would buy a USA guitar, and that's not very likely. I already know of a company that sells pretty nice imports for a really cheap price. These guitars are, or were, well made and finished, with decent hardware and GFS pickups. The guitars are sold by guitarfetish (dot) com.

Yeah, and MADE by poverty-level 3rd world workers, sucking fumes and dust all day.

They're probably better off than some of the people that they know. Abused is better than dead! My GFS guitar was made in Korea, and it is a great guitar (nice and light, about like a Deceiver, but better than the Deceiver, except for the pickups).

Joined: 05 Mar 2012 Posts: 77 Location: Evanston, IL

Don't give up on World Guitars Korea or UnSung Korea. There are some really good guitars still being built there for BC Rich, D B Z, Schecter, Agile and the few remaining Dean DCR's. I've seen plenty of videos from both of those 2 plants, looks like a decent place to work. In fact, looks exactly like the Jackson USA shop but cleaner.

It's the Indonesian and Chinese guitars that are being built by people that are effectively slaves.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:30 am

79 series Black, White and Silverburst MLs = gone. Only got $100 for each one, but I made sure I took the Gotoh bridge off the silverbuest and put it on my Cherryburst 79 series ML. Why did I get rid of them? The wood was horrible. The guitars sounded like butt. Bought a used USA Gibson Explorer in Burgundy.

I bought a Chinese made Schenker for $239. I wouldn't have paid $400 for a brand new one. So far I got lucky, though I'm going to have to replace the nut on it. That's why I paid GC $25 for a warranty package.

It used to be I owned more imports than USA. Now it's the opposite. I own more USA stuff than imports.

I will never part with my lawsuit Ibanezs. Nothing from the USA in the 70s can touch the quality of those guitars. Even though they were made from Ash, and not Korina. Same goes for the Hamer Nielsen model.

When I was a kid, I always enjoyed going into a music store gawking guitars. Now I don't with the import crap I see, on the used stand. And much of it is Dean import stuff. I saw a 8 string modifier yesterday. I bet that line goes the same route the Splittail line went. Just watch.

And the 70s guitars that were so bad, are fetching just as much as a new Gibson. It is really a hit or miss with 70s stuff, because their quality was so inconsistent.

Elliott told me the other night they are going to release a Schenker model in the Kaleidoscope finish, but I'm not going to pay $1300 for a Chinese guitar. No way! I'll buy me a USA Moderne for $400 more before that.

Joined: 09 Jul 2007 Posts: 340 Location: cali.

Nightrain wrote:

Looks like my import buying days are over. But I won't be buying from Carvin either. I will either buy USA Dean , G&L, or Bernie Rico Jr. from now on. I have already committed to the Water V though. Cool

BTW Carvin is not all they claim to be as well.

This problem is the same on almost all products made out side of the US. The cost of paying union workers makes the product expensive but it also keeps the jobs here.
I have been a union worker since 07 and we fight hard for our contracts with the big corporations. i feel bad that those workers are out of a job but if America would insist on buying American those jobs may never have been that good .
I am just like everyone else , I do shop price for what I can afford to buy based on my income. I would have payed another $400 to get the water V made in the USA. personally but it is what it is.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5598 Location: phoenix az.

I cant see paying 3 grand for a guitar that im going to beat to death.My 2 main guitars are a black gold v(import)and a doa goldtop v it doesnt say where its made but it dont say usa so who knows.3 grand just to have it say made in usa gimme a break!ive had usa deans there isnt a 2000 dollar difference.So many people think oh if i had this usa guitar it would be sooo much better!But in reality with matched pickups and distortion closed eyes u wouldn't know the difference.
example I have a GnL my dad gave me cost him over 2 grand.best clean tone ive ever heard but with distortion my dean v black gold slays it.I had an old Dean flame v but compared to my old 79 series v with matched pickups it actually sounded muffled.

For a 2000 dollar difference in price I want more than just to be able to say its made in usa. Make usa guitars for 500 bucks and ill buy them!Im a single parent I have to play what i can afford.hmmmmm 2500 for a guitar or braces for my daughter seems pretty clear to me.
The playability of my imports since the refret are amazing.To me a guitar is just a tool of what i do.Really i could sound just as good on a squire if need be.If your a true shredder it does not matter what u play u can make it sound good.with an invader pickup and my amp I could shred just about any guitar.

Joined: 09 Jul 2007 Posts: 340 Location: cali.

There are lots of used Gibsons under $1000 not that they are all better than the import. I played a few recently I didn't care for in fact I had a deal on a very nice looking 05 white Gibby "V" after playing and the shop trying to sell it to me for $800 I still did not buy it. It would hold it's value no doubt just didn't make me feel I had to have it, same with a Gibby studio I played $600 but you can find them for $500.
I don't have a problem with the import guitars but many people have several guitars. I think looks,sound, feel and price are factors. I'm not knockin the imports just pointing out USA made helps US workers who proudly make them.

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:50 am

I know this is in bad taste... but it kinda reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDKfGEw4aU

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

I just wonder how much extra guitar makes charge just to say it was made in USA.
I mean really, some not all that special guitars made in USA cost $3500 or more! No beautiful quilt maple top...just painted black.

Yet some guitar makers in the USA (like the afore mentioned Carvin) will make a custom guitar with an amazing top for $1000-$1500! HOW is that possible?

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

mahly wrote:

I just wonder how much extra guitar makes charge just to say it was made in USA.
I mean really, some not all that special guitars made in USA cost $3500 or more! No beautiful quilt maple top...just painted black.

Yet some guitar makers in the USA (like the afore mentioned Carvin) will make a custom guitar with an amazing top for $1000-$1500! HOW is that possible?

Look how Carvin and Gibson are set up... Not small potatoes like Dean (for example) who make fewer guitars... Gibson and Carvin are built to pump them out and ALSO don't have import lines. (Epiphone doesn't count) Cost Vs overhead... Carvin also may be custom but they still have a list you have to choose from. Custom build yes, but custom body shapes etc...? No. Dean will pretty much do whatever you want them to. Their manufacturing facility is smaller and therefor more time is needed on each guitar to make them special for the order. This eats up costs. That is why you can get a USA Charvel for $1800, but you can also pay $4000 for a Charvel from the custom shop... They spent more time on that guitar and you'll pay for it. With the guitar that I have coming, the version they are building for me costs over a grand more than one of the regular models because of all the extra work that was needed to make my specs. That's where costs go. USA made and "Custom" made are not always synonymous but many people assume they are. I'm sure you know what I mean but I'm just putting it out there for people that don't understand.

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:03 am

BKW wrote:

I know this is in bad taste... but it kinda reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDKfGEw4aU

Bawhahaha.......... Laughing

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

... Gibson and Carvin are built to pump them out and ALSO don't have import lines. (Epiphone doesn't count) ....

Um... why doesn't Epiphone count? How about Kramer, Baldwin, Steinberger, Tobias, Valley Arts, Maestro... Gibson has tons of import lines. They've just decided to keep their name off it, well most of the time, they did some Gibson branded import guitars for BestBuy...

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Armitage wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

... Gibson and Carvin are built to pump them out and ALSO don't have import lines. (Epiphone doesn't count) ....

Um... why doesn't Epiphone count? How about Kramer, Baldwin, Steinberger, Tobias, Valley Arts, Maestro... Gibson has tons of import lines. They've just decided to keep their name off it, well most of the time, they did some Gibson branded import guitars for BestBuy...

No, Gibson absorbed those guitar brands/import lines. They didn't start them. Dean started it's import line as did most other companies. Buying out or absorbing isn't the same thing. You can buy a Gibson USA for around the same price as a high end Epiphone so there is no real need for an import line with the Gibson name. Those Melody Maker guitars are awesome!

Either way you're missing the point and picking out a specific idea I stated. Gibson and Carvin aren't "Custom" guitars since you have to use their options. You can customize around their parameters. Yes I'm sure they will build you something special but be prepared to pay. My local shop ordered a LPC that was custom spec'd for the store for their high end wall and it's over 5k.

The shop I used to work at was a Schecter dealer. We had one USA custom order and it was $4800.

Jackson custom shop guitars are generally over 3k

So USA made and custom are not the same. Carvin is the closest you can get to a true custom at decent prices but even then you're still not able to get certain things from them, like custom neck profiles and body shaping. Good luck asking for certain hardware or electronics upgrades too.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

No, Gibson absorbed those guitar brands/import lines. They didn't start them.

Gibson bought the names and for some created import lines around them. And Dean doesn't make much for Custom guitars either... "since you have to use their options. You can customize around their parameters. Yes I'm sure they will build you something special but be prepared to pay..."

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

Here is an interesting article from CNN on Chinese factories;

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/30/opinion/chang-chinese-factory-workers/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/business/china-foxconn-interns/index.html?hpt=hp_bn5

And another... Foxconn caught.

Joined: 21 Sep 2010 Posts: 436

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

I cant see paying 3 grand for a guitar that im going to beat to death.My 2 main guitars are a black gold v(import)and a doa goldtop v it doesnt say where its made but it dont say usa so who knows.3 grand just to have it say made in usa gimme a break!ive had usa deans there isnt a 2000 dollar difference.So many people think oh if i had this usa guitar it would be sooo much better!But in reality with matched pickups and distortion closed eyes u wouldn't know the difference.
example I have a GnL my dad gave me cost him over 2 grand.best clean tone ive ever heard but with distortion my dean v black gold slays it.I had an old Dean flame v but compared to my old 79 series v with matched pickups it actually sounded muffled.

For a 2000 dollar difference in price I want more than just to be able to say its made in usa. Make usa guitars for 500 bucks and ill buy them!Im a single parent I have to play what i can afford.hmmmmm 2500 for a guitar or braces for my daughter seems pretty clear to me.
The playability of my imports since the refret are amazing.To me a guitar is just a tool of what i do.Really i could sound just as good on a squire if need be.If your a true shredder it does not matter what u play u can make it sound good.with an invader pickup and my amp I could shred just about any guitar.

I tend to agree with you. Yes, they are nicer in areas, but with some work, you can make an import play very well for way less than half the price. I love the USA's and they are better, just not 2000 dollars better.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Armitage wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

No, Gibson absorbed those guitar brands/import lines. They didn't start them.

Gibson bought the names and for some created import lines around them. And Dean doesn't make much for Custom guitars either... "since you have to use their options. You can customize around their parameters. Yes I'm sure they will build you something special but be prepared to pay..."

There ya go again, not understanding what you're reading lol... If you use their parameters the costs fall within a quoted spec. If you want something they don't do, like a custom neck profile or body shaping.... IT WILL COST MORE. Sometimes I think you pick out what you want to read Laughing

Dean doesn't send you a list of things to choose from. They make their USA guitars to a spec they have. If you want something special they will do it but you will pay extra for it. If you want a USA guitar built to their standards it's NOT a custom guitar. If they have to stray from spec to do something for you that's not done on other guitars then it's custom.

You can get a Chinese guitar custom made, or a Korean guitar custom made. Custom means "special for you" and not like a standard production run and not from standard options. That's what the original question was

mahly wrote:

Yet some guitar makers in the USA (like the afore mentioned Carvin) will make a custom guitar with an amazing top for $1000-$1500! HOW is that possible?

And I answered it.

When you buy a car from a dealer and pick down the list of available options you're not getting a custom car Laughing

When you take that car and make it one of a kind then it is.

Joined: 28 Jul 2004 Posts: 956 Location: D.O.A. 04-00341

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Armitage wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

No, Gibson absorbed those guitar brands/import lines. They didn't start them.

Gibson bought the names and for some created import lines around them. And Dean doesn't make much for Custom guitars either... "since you have to use their options. You can customize around their parameters. Yes I'm sure they will build you something special but be prepared to pay..."

There ya go again, not understanding what you're reading lol... If you use their parameters the costs fall within a quoted spec. If you want something they don't do, like a custom neck profile or body shaping.... IT WILL COST MORE. Sometimes I think you pick out what you want to read Laughing

Dean doesn't send you a list of things to choose from. They make their USA guitars to a spec they have. If you want something special they will do it but you will pay extra for it. If you want a USA guitar built to their standards it's NOT a custom guitar. If they have to stray from spec to do something for you that's not done on other guitars then it's custom.

You can get a Chinese guitar custom made, or a Korean guitar custom made. Custom means "special for you" and not like a standard production run and not from standard options. That's what the original question was

mahly wrote:

Yet some guitar makers in the USA (like the afore mentioned Carvin) will make a custom guitar with an amazing top for $1000-$1500! HOW is that possible?

And I answered it.

When you buy a car from a dealer and pick down the list of available options you're not getting a custom car Laughing

When you take that car and make it one of a kind then it is.

I agree Carvin is the closest to a custom guitar builder, the "ala carte" method is really the only way you can go with a large output manufacture and still supply a large amount of options. Just the fact that you can choose a different head stocks on a model is heads and above any other builders in there out put range. I have seen them use customer supplied wood, and do some body shaping do two four and single tone/ volume route. But it seems its touch and go what they will do when you ask.

Other than the ala carte items I got on my order I asked for dark older mahogany , it was no extra charge and they did it with out extending the build time. The fact that every guitar that comes off the line has customer specific selections and they can get them out the door in 10 weeks or less with high quality a fair price and get them right, should embarrass most other company's.

Guitars are very customer driven, as long as people are willing to pay $1200 for a Indonesian mystery wood guitar wrapped in a sticker and enough poly to stop a bullet, they will keep making them. Same with student models that are basically useless as a instrument and $5000 guitars that take 2 years to get and are just altered standard line guitars.
I think anyone who has watched the Gibson factory tour video and noticed they just pull better wood off the standard line during production, knows those are going to the $5000 and up tags with little if any extra build effort or time. But the buyers will lay down the cash then hail them as the best guitars ever built to all .

In the end most dont think or care about little kids working 16 hour shifts for one dollar a day, or wood labeled as a tone wood but only has a similar color or its genus is so far down the line its like saying a horse is the same as a TREX. Or that they will cut down a tree and only use a area and discard the rest due to color difference. only. As long as people buy them, hail them and wail on them they will be made in that manor because its cheaper and faster and they can sell them.

Joined: 29 Jun 2012 Posts: 30

You also need to understand how a market like the one for guitars works.

You have several different levels of users who all have different ideas of what the word "expensive" means.

"Expensive" means something entirely different to someone who needs a year to save up $3000 as compared to someone who has $3000 left after they get paid for a month or someone who needs 5 years to save that $3000 up.

And the guitar industry offers something very different for each level of buyer.

The first guy in my example above would likely buy a mid-level guitar for MUCH less than $3000 that was made over seas, though if he's a performer he may spend a little more for the guitar than someone playing for themselves, but it would still likely be foreign made.

The second guy would get that custom guitar from the USA shop, with all the bells and whistles, and would value it no more or less than the first guy values his mid-level guitar from Korea, whether as a performer or for himself.

The third guy, he's the market for the entry level guitars, even if he's an experienced player. He's also the guy that knows how to fiddle and tweak a guitar to get more and better performance from it. And he values this guitar no different than the two guys above. Often the beginning guitar player falls into this category as well, and eventually learns to tweak and repair out of necessity.

We are lucky to live in a time when the guys making guitars are savvy enough to understand the different needs of the different people interested in buying their product. Variety as well as competition has brought down the overall price of owning a fine instrument that you are happy to play and can be proud of.

Much of the world (particularly Asia) is catching up to where the US is and they are going through their respective industrial revolutions. Luckily they have an example such as the USA to look to as a blueprint. Unionization of workers to address poor working conditions didn't happen all at once and wasn't always successful, but our history shows that it can make positive changes.

As well, our example of not discarding unions after they served their purpose can hopefully help them to prevent the problems we now face in the USA where we've priced ourselves out of global markets in the name of 'social justice' and 'fairness'. The men hanging onto power in unions that achieved their purposes almost 100 years ago are no better than the men they went up against, power hungry fools tapping into the greed of people who should know better. Unions aren't about 'social justice', they're about 'social greed' and it's disgraceful!! Nothing destroys a country worse than winning the fight and then refusing to lay down your arms and to abide by the agreements you fought for. Asian countries might be able to avoid this if they pay attention to history and put down the beasts that unions eventually become by necessity, before they grow big enough to devour the prosperity they were created from.

But while these countries sort themselves out like we did a hundred years ago, they are at least eking out a living where there was no hope otherwise. Tell them about a better world, but get out of their way of earning a living and learn to appreciate the fruits of their labor, otherwise no one has a job!

James

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:24 am

This is an interesting general economic issue. It happens with EVERYTHING we consume for the most part.

The bottom line is that we have stepped into the world market a long time ago (or maybe not so long ago) way too quickly.

I think a good general rule is that our country SHOULD have set some minimum standards regarding child labor, etc...and chose to not trade/import from countries that didn't meet those standards period.

The sad bottom line is we want all our stuff, and we don't care how it was made. Ain't greed AWESOME! In fact, we want it soooo bad, we will screw ourselves out of our own economy pretty soon because of that.

Soapbox aside - if it feels good, and sounds good, it is good. I don't care if it was assembled by drunk thumbless monkeys.