new age of music business? goo0d article

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 12247 Location: PEORIA ILLINOIS

Is this the new way of making sure to recoup finances?
I kind of like this idea. Although I dont see it taking off for the sole reason that everyone will just not partake in order to wait for one person to buy it when it actually comes out and then give it away to everyone waiting to steal it. A few hardcore fans will do it for the extras but most people will continue to steal.

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=182436

Joined: 20 Sep 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Central FL

Seems like a sound idea in theory, but the price of admission looks a little steep to me...

$30 for a physical copy of the CD? For that price you also get the digital download 2 weeks before the actual street release, which is kind of cool, but getting it early isn't much of a big deal to me... I don't care that I would "also" get a digital copy, since I can make that for myself (completely legal, btw) once I have the CD.

I do still buy tons of CD's, but I immediately rip them on iTunes and play music exclusively on my iPod, except on of my cars that only has a CD player (no iPod interface)... I very rarely buy a digital download, as I'd rather have an actual hardcopy of the CD, especially in the case of a hard drive crash or something like that...

If there were some cool signed items included for reasonable prices, I could see that being worthwhile, too, but it looks like you have to spend $60 to get a signed physical copy of the CD.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5593 Location: phoenix az.

people are going to steal music,programs,movies,porn u name it and anything that can be posted.This is not going to change anytime soon.Ur best bet is to use your album to gain fans and come up with some really sweet looking merchandise and make your money off that! Like al from ministry said"steal my album i don't give a f**k just buy our tshirts cause thats what pays the bills!"
You cant download a shirt,Hat,panties,bracelets,bandanas ect.
This is the new way for the music business.swim upstream or go with the flow.Merch is the money maker now its all that's left.

Even software companys are catching on, sure we will give u the software free.But there will be commercials running in the corner of your screen for alternate products.Even on youtube you get stuck watching 10 seconds of a commercial before u can watch copyrighted videos.
Sure there are people who still buy music and dont pirate but most are just selective of what they pirate.example joe blow buys the cds of the bands he likes to support their music and not steal the music right?But then u go to his facebook page and hes posting images of his favorite bands and he owns none of the rights to these photos.Or he posts videos from the same band he bought the cd from off their live dvd that he didnt buy.where did the video come from? Oh yes someone ripped the dvd and put it on the net thus stealing from the bands pocket.because if one is going to claim he does not steal from the net ,one must buy every photo,every picture,program,music ,movie that one would watch ,listin to or re post for others to see.
See its rely funny to me that people dont think about what they are complaining about when they do it themselves on a daily basis and usually the guy complaining the most has a stolen picture as their avatar

Rolling Eyes

There are mass amounts of joe blows out there I say just sell the merch and stfu!
My band cactus chainsaw just put out a new album sure we would love it if u bought it but if u can find it for free steal it and give it to ur buddies spread it around all u want!!because the more people who know who we are the better our chances are of selling some shirts and other merch.when our new merch is ready we plan on giving our cd away with every shirt purchased! Very Happy

Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 793 Location: D.C. Metro

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

Ur best bet is to use your album to gain fans and come up with some really sweet looking merchandise and make your money off that! Like al from ministry said"steal my album i don't give a f**k just buy our tshirts cause thats what pays the bills!"
You cant download a shirt,Hat,panties,bracelets,bandanas ect.
This is the new way for the music business.swim upstream or go with the flow.Merch is the money maker now its all that's left.

That's exactly right. Look at Zakk Wylde. Black Label Society is as much a brand as it is a band, possibly more. I couldn't tell you how many people I've come across wearing BLS gear that had no idea they were even a band. Meet and Greets are the other big money maker for more established acts. Remember the days when all you had to do to meet your favorite artist was hang out by the bus after the show? Now you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get your picture taken with them in front of a backdrop. I was blown away when I looked at the M&G packages from the most recent BLS tour. That package Lanning got is sweet, but they want a thousand bucks for it and it doesn't even include admission to the show!

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 12247 Location: PEORIA ILLINOIS

I totally agree Rob.

even Lars figured it out
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=182595

Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1742 Location: NJ

BLOODROOT wrote:

I totally agree Rob.

even Lars figured it out
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=182595

Well, I still buy CDs. I do not own a computer and I do not own an iPod. And I still buy T-shirts at shows if I see a design I like even though most of the time now days the T-shirts cost more than the ticket to get in.

I understand times have changed, but I agree with DB, sometimes the prices of things are ridiculous...

I really dig that Ninja Star one, but $52.99 is kind of steep unless it's some foofoo Italian designer or something Laughing

I'd say $30 tops would be cool.

And I don't know about these "Meet and Greets" It kind of takes the fun and cool story out of it.

Like I met Kerry King once in Cleveland mall, they were playing there that night and he was in the food court standing in line at Arby's Laughing

Met John Campbell from LOG in Atlantic City, they were playing the House of Blues and he was waiting in line for a poker table to open up.

And I have a few other stories like that. I realize that sometimes they might not want to be bothered, like if KK was actually sitting down eating Arby's I wouldn't have bothered him or if JC was actually playing poker, but both times dude was just standing in line.

To me it is a lot cooler to see them unexpectedly just doing regular people stuff than to go "Oh yeah, I met Kerry King, I paid $350 for a Meet and Greet package."

And I think the idea from the original article is a cool spin, but here's my question...

Sometimes things don't work out and projects fall through and whatnot.

What happens when you have all these people who pre-paid for a CD, you spent all that money, and then the project falls apart and there is no CD and no money to refund?

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5593 Location: phoenix az.

Das Brutalheimmer wrote:

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

Ur best bet is to use your album to gain fans and come up with some really sweet looking merchandise and make your money off that! Like al from ministry said"steal my album i don't give a f**k just buy our tshirts cause thats what pays the bills!"
You cant download a shirt,Hat,panties,bracelets,bandanas ect.
This is the new way for the music business.swim upstream or go with the flow.Merch is the money maker now its all that's left.

That's exactly right. Look at Zakk Wylde. Black Label Society is as much a brand as it is a band, possibly more. I couldn't tell you how many people I've come across wearing BLS gear that had no idea they were even a band. Meet and Greets are the other big money maker for more established acts. Remember the days when all you had to do to meet your favorite artist was hang out by the bus after the show? Now you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get your picture taken with them in front of a backdrop. I was blown away when I looked at the M&G packages from the most recent BLS tour. That package Lanning got is sweet, but they want a thousand bucks for it and it doesn't even include admission to the show!

I was wondering how he swung that.

Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 71

What a topic!
Last year I was sitting at a buddy's house talking to one of his teenage sons. Luke looked at me and said, "Nobody that I know ever pays for music." It resonated and my dreams since childhood seemed to take a hit.
An interview I saw with Gene Simmons, odd that the interviewer was Henry Rollins, but Mr. Simmons said, "The fans killed the music industry, because they wanted everything for free." He continued, but I'd say he was correct. Making music and making money don't go hand in hand anymore, at least not as easily.

Addendum: It was never actually "easy" before, but unless you play live, it's almost impossible. Wahi' opining with the best of them.

...wisdom

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

You're missing something. The money in the industry is not in playing live unless you're a really big band. The money is in licensing and things of that nature. I'm talking about selling your music to commercials, websites, movies, video games, etc... You can make a living just fine that way. Also most (not all) of us are rock and metal guys. There is a SH!T TON of money in Country, Electronica and R&B. You can't say there is no money in music because there is plenty. The difference being if you want to earn a living as a musician you have to be open to play what pays the bills, not what you want to play. My band doesn't make enough money to survive on its own but I tech for other bands, do live sound and recording sessions. My drummer plays in a top 40 corporate rock band and does conventions and makes more than enough to live. It's still the music industry, just not all about me rocking on stage with my band. We all hope that some day we can just do what we want but that's not the case.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10588 Location: Canada

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

...You cant download a shirt,Hat,panties,bracelets,bandanas ect.

But people can buy tons of un-licenced stuff all day. Just because it's got your fav band on it, doesn't mean they see a dime.

Joined: 26 Oct 2012 Posts: 34 Location: London UK

I only buy CDs if it's a band I love and usually it'd be their new album I buy, rip to iTunes and stick it on my ipod.

If it's a band I've heard about I'll spotify them, then maybe download the few songs I like on itunes.

I had a plan that somebody up here mentioned before of selling CDs exclusively at gigs that come with some sort of press pack deal £10-£20 for a t shirt, cd, and stickers or something.

Joined: 27 Oct 2010 Posts: 721 Location: Greenwood, IN

In my opinion, the biggest mistake that most bands/musicians make is pretty much the same mistake that almost every other business makes- they try to do the least amount of work possible to make a buck, instead of trying to provide the most value for a buck.

Soil want's $15 for a digital download and $30 for a CD?! Really?!!! I wonder when was the last time one of those guys paid $30 for a CD? If that EVER happened I'll smash my own balls with a hammer.

Bands that do stuff like that make their fans feel like suckers. And nobody likes to feel like a sucker.

Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:51 am

It's more of a way to finance the album. Record companies just aren't providing the funds to create, mix, post production and marketing anymore except for the most 'Popular' bands.

MAB is running a Kickstarter right now for his next album and has already been pledged almost $20,000 towards the creation of the new album in 14 days.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15580365/michael-angelo-batio-intermezzo-album-project

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

It's all because of the internet. Record companies used to fund bands because they would make their money back 3X on the back end. Now the internet and current state of the industry make it so anyone can have a band, album, tour, etc as long as they can afford it. Why would the record companies shell out a dime now? They just let the bands fend for themselves even if they are signed. It doesn't cost them nearly as much as it used to and now there are more bands out touring on skeleton budgets. Why are the prices higher now? Bands have to ask fans to pay for the costs that USED TO BE OFFSET BY THE RECORD COMPANIES who are no longer shelling out the big bucks. So what you are seeing are real costs and bands are faced with the reality of it. There used to be an industry that supported hard working artists. Now it's an industry of self starters who don't need to be particularly famous to be out there as long as they have a fan base willing to support their venture. If anyone is getting something for nothing it's the industry/clubs/promoters. Pay to tour, pay to play, pay to promote and they don't spend a dime. They get it all delivered to them on a silver platter by bands and fans. Why would it change?

Dodging Daylight's last tour expenses were $7,500.00 for a 10 day run... How much did we make on merch sales? $250.... REALITY.... We're not going to stop because we're too far into it now to give up but that's were many bands fail and break up... They can't afford to keep going and it's the fault of the fans. When you can put a lot of people in a venue but they can't be bothered to spend a dime on merch or an album it speaks volumes about what people expect. Had we sold merch to a good portion of our crowds we would have made money but instead people wanted us to just GIVE them sh1t... Rolling Eyes

As far as illegal downloading? I gave up on that fight. Buy my music, steal my music.... Whatever, just listen to it and tell people about it. If I whined that you were doing it you would complain that I was greedy for asking you to pay $5 for an album I spent $15,000.00 on and that you deserve a cut of it somehow. Most people don't realize what would happen if everyone stole from where they worked and your company went out of business and you were put out on your a$$ and had no way to pay your bills. So then you just tell me to get a day job... Well this is my chosen career, so I'll say the same to you. After you spend all week working wherever you work, go get another job to pay your bills. You should just do what you do for free too. It's ridiculous that people can't put that simple theory to work in their minds.

Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 2500 Location: Houston, TX

Well said/written Lanning!

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Granderojo wrote:

Well said/written Lanning!

maybe but you know that most people still think I'm wrong lol Laughing

Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 793 Location: D.C. Metro

I think more up and coming artists need to accept the fact that the game has changed, and stop trying to force it back to the way it was to suit them. Stealing is wrong, the internet has killed album sales blah blah blah. It's true but it doesn't matter.

Not to take a shot at Lanning, because I respect him and what he's doing, but I'll use him as an example since he put the info out there so we know it's real numbers. If you know people are only going to download your album, why would you spend $15k to record it? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Spend $2k to setup a protools recording rig in your practice space, record singles yourself and put them out on your website for free. Nobody cares how polished it sounds because they're listening to it in mp3 format on their phones through $15 earbuds. You could release one song a month for free, and then at the end of the year when you have 12 songs put them on itunes with some bonus live tracks if you buy the whole album.

People don't get invested in bands based on albums the way they used to, you need to make them feel like they're part of the process. To reference Lanning again, Dodging Daylight has been smart about using the social media machine by posting lots of videos and that sort of behind the scenes stuff. But they should take it even further. One of my first exposures to Pantera was through their home videos, seeing how crazy they were made me want to check them out and learn more about them. We live in a world where people devour online videos, and artists have the capability to film every below 70 IQ type thing they do throughout the day and have it online for their fans that night absolutely free. Why aren't they focusing on that instead of spending a small fortune pumping out albums people clearly don't care about? The game has changed, adapt or die. Nobody is bemoaning the death of Kodak because technology killed film:

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2012/10/29/obsolescence/

Why is music immune to the forward momentum of technology? Do you feel bad for the photographer whenever you put a picture you didn't take as the background on your phone or as your Facebook profile photo? Why not? It's the same exact thing. I used to do a lot of concert photography, and I've seen my photos pop up on different things from Facebook pages to eBay ads more times than I can count. Should I get mad? Should I denounce the internet for making my art even more publicly available for free than mp3's? I guess I could, but what's the point? I make sure all my stuff is watermarked and hope that maybe it'll push some people to look me up.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Oh trust me Jason... Videos of my morning BMs are coming... If Kim K can be famous for doing nothing then we'll be just fine. Laughing

In all seriousness though... I want to add that the reason I bring up my band is to make a very solid point. We cannot talk about big popular bands here. Yes pirating effects everyone but we just can't talk about those bands. By the time you have heard of them, unless they are very local to you or you just got lucky to see them, they have already been set up to do well... Someone is already bankrolling them and they are already part of the big worldwide promotion machine. So regardless if you like them or not many other people will...

We can't talk about the 1% of bands that came out of the gate with amazing songs, a big tour and major promotion. They are already where they need to be. If they fail then the climate just wasn't right for them. When Rhianna was first shot out of a cannon you didn't see the years of work that led up to that. You just heard some dude discovered some chick and BAM... FALSE... That whole thing was likely over a year in the making if not 2 years.

We're talking about the Dodging Daylights of the world. The bands consisting of guys who work really shitty jobs or no job at all so they can commit to a band 100% of the time if they have to. Bands whos members spend all of their time, money, effort etc to try and get to the next level. Bands who are not in busses or even getting hotel rooms on tour but who are packed elbow to a$$hole in small cars with their gear trying to get to the next venue. We're talking about the bands who the industry would say have "Potential" and are actually being serious instead of being kind so as to not hurt anyone's feelings.

Everyone starts somewhere. Only a fraction of a percentage of artists out there are rocketed to stardom without a plethora of disastrous stories and accounts of their travels to bing known. That's why many artists, including myself have a messed up outlook of the industry.

These are the guys you are fvcking over by pirating. These are the artists that some of the big artists are fighting for when they talk about pirating. If you like a band, don't be a douchebag... Pay what equals out to a combo meal at McDonalds and buy the album. Unlike McDonalds our music will stay with you longer... If an artist is asking for $30 for an album there must be tour costs that need to be offset and people are obviously paying for it or they couldn't ask for $30. Yes, we paid $1000.00 for our meet with Zakk Wylde. Why? Because when I was 13 and just starting to play guitar I took lessons from him at NGSW. His playing with Ozzy inspired me so much when I was a teen that I swore my soul to playing music and making a career (no matter how small) out of it. His determination to pick up after getting the boot from Ozzy and going it with BLS was a kick in the ass to never give up. His kicking alcohol, something I thought he couldn't live without, and doing it cold turkey, was proof that you can overcome almost anything. He earned $1000.00 of my money. The vest and photos and memories were for me, but he earned that cash and if BLS fell on hard times I would have likely just donated it to them. I support artists I truly believe in regardless of how famous they may be. If my grand paid for their hotel rooms that night then good. I'm glad they got a good night's rest. I may seem like a crazy person but I can at least say I'm not a hypocrite.

Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 793 Location: D.C. Metro

That's all true, but the big question then is what's the plan? If that's the landscape you're competing with, how do you (or any other band) succeed? Obviously a loaded question, but that's really what it comes down to.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Das Brutalheimmer wrote:

That's all true, but the big question then is what's the plan? If that's the landscape you're competing with, how do you (or any other band) succeed? Obviously a loaded question, but that's really what it comes down to.

The answer is a very simple one... It comes down to two things... 1... MONEY and 2... Who you know. That's why the majority don't succeed beyond their local region. Luckily for us we have a bassist now who is a permanent member from a much larger band and our new drummer is from Flybanger from back in the day. So that will help the "Who you know" part along with things we're working on. Also Garth Richardson, who is a famous producer came to see us at rehearsal and offered his help. We're getting in the right circles now after 2 years of working. The other part, the money... You know the story there so it's a non-issue. Bands however need to work extra hard. If you think you're just going to put out a good demo/ep/lp and get big then you're in the wrong business. You might as well just become a drug dealer because you're selling BS Dreams.

My point however isn't about my band. It's about telling people they can't look at the industry based on how popular bands are doing. That's not a climate assessment at all. That would be like if the US based homelessness and household incomes based on the top tear of earners in the top tax bracket. You can't mark it on a curve. You have to look at how the little guy is doing. For every Gojira or Shinedown on tour in their bus at night sleeping in their bunks there are 500 other bands stuffed into vans and station wagons touring and working just as hard. They are the lower/middle class of ass kickers. That's where you have to base your numbers.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10588 Location: Canada

Lanning is right. Things are so crippled now. I can't imagine getting into a band for a living anymore. You even have to compete with hobbyist bands getting the few jobs out there, and people recording and making CDs in their basements. The buying public has to wade through a ton of stuff to find anything good anymore... and they're getting most of their stuff for free and not appreciating the work etc.

You used to buy an album and listen to it over and over and pretty soon started to like the songs you didn't like at first because they're weren't as accessible, but turned out to be way cooler. Now people download 100 albums, 60 outright suck by bands who shouldn't be putting out stuff (but mommy paid for it), and then only liking 10 songs because they never gave the other CDs a chance.

It might seem great to hear all these independent bands, but pretty soon that's all you get. You don't get the people who were chosen because they had talent and supported until they were tour and recording ready, you get people whose Mom paid for a CD or a couple dentists who play on weekends for something to do.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

There is really good money in playing weddings and corporate events though Laughing

The drummer we have been using does that as his full time job. He doesn't like to play Lady GaGa and Bon Jovi covers but it pays. Laughing

Joined: 13 Dec 2010 Posts: 3673 Location: Tampa, FL

Makes me wonder if this was what the "industry" was like back before "bands" were around. Like Mozart and Bach, were they rich and famous in their time? Back in the 1800s, early to mid 1900s was being a musician just that? It was a job like everyone else but fame and wealth was not a part of it, played the music they loved and that was it? I'll still do whatever it takes to make a living off music but maybe the whole idea of being infinitely wealthy is gone... at least for the time being.

Casey Grillo from Kamelot told me a few months back that if I ever get the chance, do NOT get signed. He said the first thing they'll do is give you a nice sized check (loan) to record the album. As much or as little you use is up to you but it's all going to be paid back in some way. Then they'll promote your music on facebook, myspace, youtube... wherever they can for free or next to nothing, and then charge you for it. He was basically saying that an indie band won't have any debt like that cause you're not taking out a huge loan. What you spend is what you have, you can do the promoting yourselves, it's just how much work you'll put into it.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5593 Location: phoenix az.

Hmmm
One of my bands(throw the switch) just got picked up by a local label they want to record an album in january and pay for all our merch in exchange for a simple percentage of what we make on all of it.they are going to pay all the costs up front.what they are doing is getting a group of bands together and recording each band an album then making a compilation cd with one song from each band to put out in addition to each bands album.They have agreed to market us on itunes and advertize.They are also going to put on big avertized shows with all the bands they have signed together.here california and some other big citys paying all our expenses.meanwhile we retain all our rights to music,logos ect.they are hand picking bands that they want.im interested to see how it goes and how they plan on beating this stealing thing.I have an option to get out of my contract if they do not deliver exactly what they promise to.this label is all musicians trying to help other musicians.I figure what do we got to lose we have no money to record or get merch at this point so it couldent hurt.Isnt costing us any money.
This all sounds good but remains to be seen.
My other band cactus chainsaw is catching intrest like crazy ive been on the radio doing interviews 3 times this month.also getting regular airplay here in town and just released a new album.also featured on musicians forum magazine and a bunch of other crap.Im playing out all the time and more and more keeps coming my way everyweek.
Guess how much money I got to show for it!!!....$0.00 If I can sell enough merch to break even with strings ,tubes,gas im good.I can tattoo anywhere to make the rest.

Reality

Im a single parent living in a 2 bedroom apt with my 12 year old daughter if I wasnt a good tattoo artist id be starving.I do music cause I love it and always will but id be real suprized at 43 if rock stardom is going to happen. but if i can make some people happy with my music im a happy camper.I have no education,training and havent had a real job since 1987 what the hell else am i going to do?I can shred guitar and draw like a motherf**ker this is all i know.9 to 5 isnt an option.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

I hope that works out for you bro. The reality is if it's too good to be true it really is. Not that they won't help you out and do some of those things but I would be very wary. If they paying for all your recordings and album duplication up front and not asking for much in return plus you keep everything then it sounds like they are blowing smoke up the old wazoo to get your interest. There are a lot of those little "Labels" out there. They are mostly cons trying to get bands interested. There are a few smaller indie outfits who will help you out if you pay into them and they can be worth it but nothing is free. If you told me they were loaning you $10k for an album and asking for 3X that in return with no tour support and options to drop you and keep your tunes then I would say "Welcome to the biz and congratulations on getting signed". Of course I only wish the best for ya so I hope this works out in your favor. I was in one real, actual signed band and it was a nightmare. Everything else I have done is independent. Now with my band we are independent and doing most all of the work ourselves . We are signing with major publishing in the next few months and are looking to get in with the Agency Group which is a major management outfit, but passed that I don't care if we get signed. I prefer not to and do it on our own. It costs more up front but you keep it all on the back end.

Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 1487 Location: Atlanta, GA

Stein is onto something, and I've made the same argument before.

When you're a musician, you're essentially selling something with zero intrinsic value and extremely limited utility. Your songs are not going to keep someone dry or fed. And I've yet to find a use for music other than my own amusement or to occupy part of my mind while I do something else. Not to be gruff, but in practical terms, music (like a lot of art) is worthless unless someone is willing to pay for it. You can argue with me till you're blue in the face or your fingers are exhausted from typing, but I don't believe there is any refuting that fact.

As far as it being next to impossible to "make it", look at where technology has gotten us. Lots of physical media was sold primarily in an era where the cost of producing such media was prohibitive. Remember when stereos were expensive and considered a luxury? A tape deck was an upgrade over an AM/FM receiver? The cheapest way to get access to music was to buy it.

Enter the era of compact discs. At first there was no duplicating them, because burners were outrageously expensive and the blank discs were cost prohibitive. The cheapest way to get access to music was to buy it.

All the while, the internet was developing and the methods with which we were connecting to the internet were becoming faster and less costly. Some D-bag creates a easy to navigate P2P network to freely transfer data around the same time that all computers sold now had the capability to encode music digitally. Not much longer than that, Youtube will rear it's ugly/beautiful head.

The cheapest way to experience music is now essentially free, without even stealing it. Music is used on the radio as the "filler" between commercial breaks were people will pay to advertise their more utilitarian goods and services that fulfill a more dire need than entertainment.

Suggesting live shows are the way to go is slightly silly as well. Now you're selling an experience that requires monetary but more importantly time commitments from people who have previously been enjoying your product for free. Now you're asking to people to commit their time (which is being competed for with a huge amount of stuff) as well as their money (same thing). Couple that with the creeping suburbanization of America and the time commitments and cost of travel make live shows an even tougher sell. If I commit to going to a 2 hour concert, I'm going to be committing to 5+ hours for 2 hours of amusement. Huge metros like LA, NY, Boston, it might work, but your growing suburban metros are going to have a much more difficult time finding the commitments. To compound matters, your most populus states with huge metros are now beginning to lose population to the more suburban states (look how they re-allocated electoral votes after the 2010 census)

With the "new media" selling licensing to shows, etc, you're basically using selling the use of your music to someone else who is trying to sell advertising. I don't know that merch is really a viable model either unless the music you're making appeals to 10-16 year old girls and OPI wants to make nail polish with your name on it.

Yeah, I'm totally an armchair quarterback with extremely little knowledge of "the industry", but I'm a first rate consumer and amateur historian. I have absolutely no idea the best way to monetize music in this era. I think being honest with yourself about what music actually is and is inherently worth is the first step. Figuring out how to sell something people will buy that features music is the first step, music for musics sake.

Now I'm not denigrating all the work, sacrifice, and expense that goes into creating good music. I'm a big fan of music and recognize it takes a lot of devotion to do, but it's still only art, which is only worth what someone will pay for it.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10588 Location: Canada

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

There is really good money in playing weddings and corporate events though Laughing

The drummer we have been using does that as his full time job. He doesn't like to play Lady GaGa and Bon Jovi covers but it pays. Laughing

It depends on what and where you like to play. I've got a buddy who plays old age homes. It's just him and an acoustic and a bunch of corny jokes. He makes $90 cash for an hour or so, just for something to do. Do that five six night a week and that's a few spare bucks.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Armitage wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

There is really good money in playing weddings and corporate events though Laughing

The drummer we have been using does that as his full time job. He doesn't like to play Lady GaGa and Bon Jovi covers but it pays. Laughing

It depends on what and where you like to play. I've got a buddy who plays old age homes. It's just him and an acoustic and a bunch of corny jokes. He makes $90 cash for an hour or so, just for something to do. Do that five six night a week and that's a few spare bucks.

That's what I used to do in Silvertung. We would play 2-3 nights a week and bring in about $1,200 a night playing covers with very little expenses. After it was divided up our day jobs were really just there to supplement. We would play shows doing the originals with bigger bands and they would always cost us. Mostly because the band wasn't that great so no one was buying anything but it was fun. Laughing

Now it's all about business. Everything I do in my band is based around the current climate. I only bltch about downloading because it sucks but we are doing what we need to be doing to get where we need to be. It's all centered around money. Without money you won't get anywhere in this business. Be it your own money, money from a label, borrowing from a girlfriend, etc etc... No cash = no gig further than your local few sh1thole clubs. Even if you're lucky enough to have a friend get you in with opening for a big band it usually doesn't go farther than that one show you play with them. I have friends who brag and brag about opening for this band and that band... The issue is it's ALWAYS at the home city clubs in front of people who know who they are. If you can't get your band out of the area and into new markets you'll never go anywhere with it. That's just the fact. You have to tour and you have to play all the hole-in-the-wall clubs in as many cities as will have you. If you can't show the management agencies, booking agencies and publishers that you're out there in the mud with everyone throwing down then you will never have a chance.

Some people are just happy sticking with their local markets and that is admirable but a band selling music can only sell their music in their local area for so long. You can only sell tix to shows to your friends and friend of local bands for so long. Pretty soon you're over saturated and no one cares to come see you. You have to go out and conquer and prove yourself in the trenches. That takes two things....

1. Money (I already covered that).
2. You have to say FVCK YOU to everything you like. Creature comforts, wives, girlfriends, warm beds, good food, jobs, health and your sanity.

If you can do those two things you have a chance on being successful.

This sounds off topic but it's not. Why? Because we're talking about selling music. People won't buy your music, or even steal it if they don't know who you are. If you're in a band who thinks they are getting somewhere and you don't tour..... Well, look at your Facebook insights for example. It will tell you where all your fans are from. If it's all localized for the most part in your home area, then you're fvcked if you're trying to sell music.

That's as far as gigging goes. Next you need marketing and licensing. You need to have branding that is recognizable and memorable. You need to have songs on websites, as bumper music on radio shows.... You need to sneak your stuff into anywhere that will have you. We have tunes from DD on many different things.... Everything from a radio show bumper from CBS Houston, to one of the Wrestling leagues to company product videos. Anywhere that will play us. I'll put a friggin' track in a baby diaper commercial if they will have it. We don't make a lot of money from it but it directs traffic our way for sure. Also we are all memebers of SOCAN, which is like ASCAP or BMI. We get money just because other places play our songs. We also make sure we're on Spotify, LastFM and all those other little sites too just in case because a lot of people use them now.

You have to be on top of what's going on out there. I see a lot of talk from people who in reality are just lazy. (not talking about any of you) And it's sad because there are a lot of bands who should be doing more but they just don't have their sh1t together. They spend a lot of time theorizing about how to make it. There really isn't a formula. You have to go out and fail to get anywhere. If there was a formula then we'd all be famous.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5593 Location: phoenix az.

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

I hope that works out for you bro. The reality is if it's too good to be true it really is. Not that they won't help you out and do some of those things but I would be very wary. If they paying for all your recordings and album duplication up front and not asking for much in return plus you keep everything then it sounds like they are blowing smoke up the old wazoo to get your interest. There are a lot of those little "Labels" out there. They are mostly cons trying to get bands interested. There are a few smaller indie outfits who will help you out if you pay into them and they can be worth it but nothing is free. If you told me they were loaning you $10k for an album and asking for 3X that in return with no tour support and options to drop you and keep your tunes then I would say "Welcome to the biz and congratulations on getting signed". Of course I only wish the best for ya so I hope this works out in your favor. I was in one real, actual signed band and it was a nightmare. Everything else I have done is independent. Now with my band we are independent and doing most all of the work ourselves . We are signing with major publishing in the next few months and are looking to get in with the Agency Group which is a major management outfit, but passed that I don't care if we get signed. I prefer not to and do it on our own. It costs more up front but you keep it all on the back end.

I have an entertainment lawyer they get no rights to my music,name or are able to tell me when i can or cannot play out under our name nore will I owe them anything.they are paying for the product and right to have a percentage of whatever they can make off the cd we are recording in january.they said they believe it will do well with all the advertising they will be doing.the first sales of the cd will be to pay them back for recording that will be a set amount and once that is paid we get a percentage a royalty for every cd or shirt they sell.but we are not liable for the balence if it doesnt sell I made sure of this.They are covinced it will sell
and i hope it does.But if it doesnt we owe nothing and still have a cd that we own all the rights to.entertainment lawyer is still mulling it over and making amendments and what not.im still wondering how were going to actualy keep track of whats being sold and how many units yada yada.waiting for answeres from the lawyer.appreciate the advice sounds to good to be true to me to thats why i got a lawyer.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

I hope that works out for you bro. The reality is if it's too good to be true it really is. Not that they won't help you out and do some of those things but I would be very wary. If they paying for all your recordings and album duplication up front and not asking for much in return plus you keep everything then it sounds like they are blowing smoke up the old wazoo to get your interest. There are a lot of those little "Labels" out there. They are mostly cons trying to get bands interested. There are a few smaller indie outfits who will help you out if you pay into them and they can be worth it but nothing is free. If you told me they were loaning you $10k for an album and asking for 3X that in return with no tour support and options to drop you and keep your tunes then I would say "Welcome to the biz and congratulations on getting signed". Of course I only wish the best for ya so I hope this works out in your favor. I was in one real, actual signed band and it was a nightmare. Everything else I have done is independent. Now with my band we are independent and doing most all of the work ourselves . We are signing with major publishing in the next few months and are looking to get in with the Agency Group which is a major management outfit, but passed that I don't care if we get signed. I prefer not to and do it on our own. It costs more up front but you keep it all on the back end.

I have an entertainment lawyer they get no rights to my music,name or are able to tell me when i can or cannot play out under our name nore will I owe them anything.they are paying for the product and right to have a percentage of whatever they can make off the cd we are recording in january.they said they believe it will do well with all the advertising they will be doing.the first sales of the cd will be to pay them back for recording that will be a set amount and once that is paid we get a percentage a royalty for every cd or shirt they sell.but we are not liable for the balence if it doesnt sell I made sure of this.They are covinced it will sell
and i hope it does.But if it doesnt we owe nothing and still have a cd that we own all the rights to.entertainment lawyer is still mulling it over and making amendments and what not.im still wondering how were going to actualy keep track of whats being sold and how many units yada yada.waiting for answeres from the lawyer.appreciate the advice sounds to good to be true to me to thats why i got a lawyer.

Questions I would ask. Where is the distribution? If it's not in stores... Well.. Then where the hell is it that YOU can't put it? Distribution is the key to any deal. They are paying for all the advertising, recording, etc? Where are they making any money unless you go huge? If they don't own the rights to do what they want with the product then they are basically giving you something for nothing, which is a feat NOT accomplished in the music business by anyone. The only way I could see this working is if you toured worldwide like a dog until it's payed back. If you can walk away scratch free with the name, likeness, songs and the ability to do what you want and they don't own anything? That means they are just throwing money away. Not because you're band has any less chance than anyone else's. I mean you could be the next Panter for all we know. But any company willing to take that risk without protection on their back end isn't run by a competent entity. I would ask them if they were "Bat Sh1t Crazy" to give you all of this without any stipulations. If they are just taking one song and doing a compilation CD then OK I can maybe see that. Lots of people do that kind of thing, but any band getting signed, given money to record and all that comes with it OWES SOMEBODY SOMETHING. lol Laughing

Good luck to you Rob and be VERY wary. The only way I could see them making ends meet is if they had major distribution and you guys toured like dogs to pay for it. But that's how it's normally done and this is abnormal so I wouldn't quite understand it. Laughing

On the other hand, if you're paying for the recording and they just want a piece of it by providing merch and advertising for a percentage of your sales? I would run away very fast with my middle fingers in the air unless they are providing real distribution (Not CD Baby and all the online stuff you can do yourself). That would mean they want to spend what amounts to a few hundred bucks on advertising in return for a large amount of potential sales. Of course, like I said, this is in leu of major distribution, NOT Amazon, iTues and all those other outlets. You can pay a little bit of money and get a Tunecore account and do that all yourself. You want distribution, you want to be on real tours (that costs A LOT of money) and you want radio play nation wide in all markets. Without that you're just getting some guy doing what you can do yourself and basically stealing your money.

There is a promoter here locally that puts together shows and gets a bunch of good bands together to pack a place and then he takes half the door and calls it "Expenses" and he doesn't spend more than a few hours on advertising and event posters. The bands fall for it (I know because we did once) because they want to play cool clubs but the reality is he is robbing them blind. If the door makes $1000 in sales and he takes $500 and then $500 is split between a few bands, something is wrong with it. When you ask why his percentage is so high he tells you it's because of advertising. Well, he owns half the sites he posts on. So you're paying him for advertising on his site which proves no one goes to his site or he would get advertising money from other entities and he would be putting on these shows to attract other people wanting to advertise rather than having local bands pay for his bandwidth.

He's not putting local bands on stage with major touring artists in front of huge crowds in return for the price he's commanding. Yea you get to play a cool club but that's only because the local bands are packing local clubs with their own friends and fans. He's made a deal with the club agent. "I will pack your club so you can sell a lot of alcohol" Any club owner will open their door to that, so he's covered there. He has local bands work like dogs to pack that club with their friends.
You want him to work like a dog and put you in front of strangers who want to see you, not the same people you have been asking to buy tickets to your shows every time you play locally. That's total BULLSH!T. He posts to his own sites and sister sites. He has posters made "which are the only real expense", for dirt cheap.

Anyway I'm just rambling here but what I'm getting at is these bands can just come together, contact the club and do it themselves but they are being lazy and just throwing their money away to let someone else control what happens. They pay an unfair percentage of sales in exchange for very little in return. I don't blame the promoter because thees people are willing to keep paying him. He's not going to stop if they keep paying him.

OK back on track, what you want from this label is fans, and you want A LOT of them. If this label can't put you out in front of thousands of potential, screaming Cactus Chainsaw, or Throw The Switch fans then what the fvck are you singing with them for? To say you're "signed" and you're giving a company your money in exchange for what? Make it worth your while bro. Being signed is only as good as the company you sign with. If you just want to be "signed" and have some good advertising and keep your sh1t, I'll sign you to my band's label and do it for you. Then at least you can call it an international label Laughing

Our label is only there to protect our asses on the back end and for tax purposes and to separate expenses from the band name. I'll never sign a recording contract with anyone unless they are putting my CD in Wallmart and or Target and or FYE and all the mom and pop brick and mortar stores internationally. They better open the door for us to radio play in every market that plays our kind of music and open up the ability to tour nationally as a minimum. Without those things it's not worth a second of your time.

If you need a sounding board to vent out your thoughts bro you PM me anytime. I hate to see a good band get fvcked. Or at least in this business , get fvcked without lubricant and thick set of kneepads. I don't know everything there is to know but I have made a lot of mistakes in the past and can at least be a second brain to pass sh1t by.

Oh as far as keeping track of units sold, you will need a Soundscan barcode attached to the album. It keeps everyone honest because the numbers sold are not able to be tampered with. That only keeps track of purchases in stores and online. It won't cover sales at your merch booth.