Slave Labor made Guitars

Joined: 10 Dec 2012 Posts: 4 Location: Hockley, Essex, UK

Hey there, this is my first post and it's quite a deep topic, now many of our guitars we buy say "Made in China" but a lot of stuff that is made in country's with very little or no human rights is usually made in factory's where people work long hours with no breaks and get paid almost nothing with abusive conditions, of course this is something that is wrong and should be abolished but when I look at my Dean Metalman V Bass I wonder if it came from one of though's factory's as it has imprinted on it "Made in China".

So can some one answer me this are Dean guitars that are made in country's like China come from a slave labored factory? or are they made in factory's where the staff are treated humanly?

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

not saying it's right... but a lot of those people wouldn't have jobs if conditions weren't like that and if we weren't buying from them. there are unfortunately too many people there to be paid at reasonable wages. something to think about.

i'm sick of the buy USA only crap

Joined: 10 Dec 2012 Posts: 4 Location: Hockley, Essex, UK

ahh i see your point but company's like Yamaha make products in China without harsh slave labor conditions and they are still making brilliant profits personally i feel most of the problem is greedy company's who want there products made cheaper with slave labor so they can gain a stupid amount of profit.

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

if you wait a bit there may be a few in here who have knowledge of the dean's overseas factories

Joined: 10 Dec 2012 Posts: 4 Location: Hockley, Essex, UK

I hope so its just been something that is been going though my head lol

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:13 pm

I know that imported Cort guitars have gathered tons of heat for their piss poor work conditions...

Joined: 10 Dec 2012 Posts: 4 Location: Hockley, Essex, UK

yeah i heard that too they were ****ing horrible to there staff i just cant see how you can treat a normal innocent human being in such a way.

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:50 pm

Personally, I think the real problem is no one here in the USA will work for next to nothing. Labor cost in the U. S. have caused a lot if not all of this.

Sorry to state that but it's the truth.

Another point was already made about there wouldn't be jobs over there for that many people. Supply & Demand says the more you have the less it's worth.

So, labor is cheap there. More workers, UN-EDUCATED at that, equals less pay.

Since the economy failure we had here in 2008, a lot of folks are taking jobs with less pay, also, less benefits. Still they are better off than most around the world.

Bottom line is as long as the masses request high quality & low prices, there will ALWAYS be issues especially in 3rd world coutries. Do you think you could buy ANYTHING cheap from ANY country if labor cost were equal? NO WAY. THEN shipping becomes the cost.

When it's cheaper to make it there, ship it to the USA, AND IT'S STILL CHEAPER, that should speak volumes. Not no mention other issues like land cost, taxes, EPA regulations, and a thousand other cost AMERICAN companies have to face that other countries DON'T have to contend with...

Also, here in the USA we live like KINGS. Even our poor that have a home are better off than some in the world. We Americans have a VERY SKEWED VIEW of how life should be.

There are many places in the world where $20 a month is HUGE MONEY. Some people sit over here in the USA and expect the whole world to live like us. It's a bit arrogant of us to think that everyone should be like us.

YES it would be nice if everyone held hands, sang campfire songs and made sure everyone had what the average U S Citizen has, but that ain't real folks.

I'm as proud to be an American as anyone. I buy American every chance I can. But sometimes you just can't.

This is MY opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

Not intended to be a rant, but if it looks like one to you.... RANT OVER

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:33 pm

Here is a question. How do you prove one or the other? Just a question.

Company A may say that there is "No Slave Labor" or mistreatment in our overseas factory but how do you confirm? Company B may say that Company A uses "Slave Labor" in order to make themselves look better.

I have seen or heard nothing negative about Dean Guitars and the factories that they use. You would think that it would be publicized somewhere if there was wrong doing but who knows.

I am in the Electronics Industry and China and Taiwan have stolen much of the business that we once had here in North America. Fact of the matter is that it is because of what the rest of my compatriots here have said.

I guess the only thing you can do to get past this 100% is to pay 10 times the price (or more) and buy something made in the USA, Canada or Britain.

Wink

Joined: 05 Mar 2012 Posts: 77 Location: Evanston, IL

bassmantim71 wrote:

I know that imported Cort guitars have gathered tons of heat for their piss poor work conditions...

All Dean's that say "Made in Indonesia" on the back of the headstock are made by Cort. This exact topic is why I will never buy an Indonesian Dean.

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

Another thing to consider, is that those "meager wages" actually buy a lot of stuff over there as the cost of living is MUCH cheaper than in the USA.
Now the working conditions...that's something that should be at least somewhat comparable, but just because they don't make our minimum wage doesn't mean they aren't VERY happy to have that job.
One has to wonder if NOT buying from those countries with the INTENT of helping the poor folk who work there doesn't actually HURT those same people by putting them out of a job.

Joined: 30 Apr 2005 Posts: 2288 Location: Wisconsin

If it really bothers you that much, head on over to China and help them out.

Joined: 05 Mar 2012 Posts: 77 Location: Evanston, IL

This subject was covered not long ago in this thread:

http://www.deanguitars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1473005&highlight=&sid=e8cd28bce6a6f1d7fe344ec2c50d7d81#1473005

Joined: 09 Jan 2012 Posts: 62

We need to place higher tarriffs on s#%t being imported from other counties. Just try to import a guitar into Japan and see what it costs you. If all America's money wasn't being syphoned off into other countries for cheap labor, we wouldn't be in the mess were in....

Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 1487 Location: Atlanta, GA

I love posts about economics on guitar boards, where people are more than happy to let their rear ends show.

First tariffs (like all tax rates) only "fix" things when you maintain a static view of whatever issue it is you are looking at. Put the tax rate in place and very rarely is the desired result achieved since the people setting tax rates are usually not as clever as those driving the forces of the market.

Second, exploitation is wretched. That said, low wages ( comparatively speaking) does not necessarily equate to exploitation. Deplorable working conditions definitely contribute to exploitation and that is what you should concern yourself with, not simply wages. Smart phones and cable tv are not necessary to survive or even thrive. Go play savior if you must but you are trading one set of problems for another.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:11 pm

TOTALLY agree with Dave.

One thing I would add to this question is this. Who's definitions are you using?

What is considered POVERTY in the U S might not be somewhere else. More like PROBABLY WON'T be.

What is called "deplorable" in the U S is different elsewhere in the world.

A standard of living boils down to what you have and what you are used too. Some fat cat lawyer in LA would probably call what most of us live in as deplorable. It's all perspective. And I'm happy with mine.

My advice.... Take an ECON class. Move to China or Indonesia and see for yourself. See if anyone can really help.

As Mahly said, trying to help sometime is worse than butting out. The effects of a boycott COULD make things worse.

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:51 pm

People love to paint Chinese manufacturing in the worst possible light but the fact is that, for the most part, none of it's true. Almost
I asked Mick Donner about this subject. He worked for Dean Guitars a few years ago and was instrumental (no pun intended) in a lot of the development at Peavey years ago. He travels to China on a regular basis, working directly with the factories. Here's what Mick has to say about "slave labor" in China

all of the factories I have worked with have better dust collection (hence better air quality) than we had at the original Peavey guitar plant. The workers don't make much but they don't need much. They probably make anywhere from $10 to $20 per day but they're given uniforms for work (laundered at the company's expense), 3 squares per shift, lodging if they need it, daycare and preschool. I know that it doesn't seem like a lot of money but you have to remember that something like one of those rubber Nike watches that cost $60 here can be bought in China for under $3. The Chinese have the fastest growing middle class on the planet. You just don't get that [if your factory is] depending on slave labor. Usually people who talk a lot of trash about China are also people who've never owned a passport.

..

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:19 am

Brave Dave wrote:

People love to paint Chinese manufacturing in the worst possible light but the fact is that, for the most part, none of it's true. Almost
I asked Mick Donner about this subject. He worked for Dean Guitars a few years ago and was instrumental (no pun intended) in a lot of the development at Peavey years ago. He travels to China on a regular basis, working directly with the factories. Here's what Mick has to say about "slave labor" in China

all of the factories I have worked with have better dust collection (hence better air quality) than we had at the original Peavey guitar plant. The workers don't make much but they don't need much. They probably make anywhere from $10 to $20 per day but they're given uniforms for work (laundered at the company's expense), 3 squares per shift, lodging if they need it, daycare and preschool. I know that it doesn't seem like a lot of money but you have to remember that something like one of those rubber Nike watches that cost $60 here can be bought in China for under $3. The Chinese have the fastest growing middle class on the planet. You just don't get that [if your factory is] depending on slave labor. Usually people who talk a lot of trash about China are also people who've never owned a passport.

..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2245066/Real-Toy-Story-The-Chinese-factory-workers-forced-sleep-factory-floors.html

Sorry Dave but your friends assertion

Quote:

The workers don't make much but they don't need much

is asinine. Who the hell is he to determine that? From what I read of your quoted message, he even implies it by the way he talks about how they are taken care of and fed. We took care of our slaves for the most part remember? Then we had "scarecropping" after slavery ended. Think about that

Spending the better part of a whole week in a factory making pennies does not sound like a very enticing prospect to me, sounds like a nice way to say "sharecropping"

Theres no way a human life is valued in China like it is in most other industrialized other countries. What's that saying? A few dead Chinese? PLENTY more where they came from

Personally, I don't really care to dwell on the subject but when people see something so narrowminded, it irks me. Your really think Chinese workers are happy on the whole? I think not. The Middleclass you speak of makes more then $20 a day, the poor uneducated that makes up most of the labor force is not the middleclass and certainly never will be

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:25 am

Ron, I have no earthly idea what got you all upset. Maybe you should go back and re-read what Mick said. I think what he meant when he said that they don't need much is that their living expenses are very low. I hold Mick in the highest regard. He has been a personal friend for nearly 10 years and i believe he knows what he is talking about. His point was that things in China are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. He would neither endorse nor ignore cruel working conditions.

Of course, he's not speaking for the entire country of China, but this thread is about guitar factories, right? Mick has first-hand experience, so I would say that makes him much more qualified to comment than the average Joe who reads something on the internet. He has been to China numerous times dealing with the factories, so I am going to take him at his word. Narrow-minded? I hardly think so. How many times did you say you have you been to China?

Mick can be reached at Guitar Repair of Tampa - 727-251-1310. Call him up and tell him what you think. I am sure he would appreciate your enlightenment.

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:41 pm

Dave, I'm not mad. I guess what irked me was that someone who tours a factory only see's what the bosses plan for them to see. The article I posted is more the truth of the plight of Chinese laborers. I still believe that most uneducated labor is not happy but it's all they have. The alternative is to make even less in the fields. The Chinese Govt and the corporation owners know this. Sort of like, well, if you don't want the job, 10 other people are standing in line behind you. I hope someday it changes but to say "they don't need much" is something we would never tolerate here in the US. Everybody wants a better life. I guess that was my point and I certainly have no bone to pick with you

China has the fastest growing population of millionaires and billionaires... that comes at the expense of a large population that gets paid pennies and forced to work long hours and get paid EVEN LESS for working overtime. If people don't see there is something wrong with that picture, then perhaps I am the crazy one Laughing

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

Northwinds wrote:

... to say "they don't need much" is something we would never tolerate here in the US....

REALLY? Seems everyday there is a debate as to who NEEDS what. "Millionaires don't NEED that much money...they should pay more taxes" and similar silliness.

Of course the intension was that they don't need AS much as a US worker to live the same life.

Joined: 07 Sep 2008 Posts: 816 Location: South wales, uk

i firmly back up that "tours only show what a boss wants shown" part. i see it on a daily basis in a factory i work at (not in anyway musical related, just wanted to back that line up)

not going to name them, because they're considered a pretty big factory.

They pay darn' good wages, and produce amazing sales figures.. that's all that matters...to them.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Brave Dave wrote:

People love to paint Chinese manufacturing in the worst possible light but the fact is that, for the most part, none of it's true. Almost
I asked Mick Donner about this subject. He worked for Dean Guitars a few years ago and was instrumental (no pun intended) in a lot of the development at Peavey years ago. He travels to China on a regular basis, working directly with the factories. Here's what Mick has to say about "slave labor" in China

all of the factories I have worked with have better dust collection (hence better air quality) than we had at the original Peavey guitar plant. The workers don't make much but they don't need much. They probably make anywhere from $10 to $20 per day but they're given uniforms for work (laundered at the company's expense), 3 squares per shift, lodging if they need it, daycare and preschool. I know that it doesn't seem like a lot of money but you have to remember that something like one of those rubber Nike watches that cost $60 here can be bought in China for under $3. The Chinese have the fastest growing middle class on the planet. You just don't get that [if your factory is] depending on slave labor. Usually people who talk a lot of trash about China are also people who've never owned a passport.

..

This is all very true. I know some people that work with Chinese manufactures and their quality control and accuracy in making products can rival anyone on the planet. That iPhone in your pocket? Made in China. That MacBook? Made in China. That 3D TV you're watching? Made in China. In fact most things around your house are.... Wait for it.... Made in China. (Unless you live under a rock). People complain about slave labor and China this or China that with guitars and "Buy American" when they are technically surrounded by Chinese made goods in their own homes and are most likely typing their complaints on a Chinese made computer. Ridiculous....

I do however agree that manufacturing should be brought back to North America for economical reasons but to point the finger at China is kinda pointless. It's like when you get work done on your house. You shop around for the best contractor for the price (unless you can do the work yourself). If you find an awesome contractor in your local area which happens to be higher rent area who is willing do do the job for $60,000 and then find a contractor equally as talented who lives in an area that's lower rent and able to do the job for $40,000 because their living expenses are lower...? It's obvious who the choice is. The Americas need to find a way to lower production costs of goods without tarnishing quality of life for the working public. That's not likely to happen anytime soon however with industrial nations such as China willing to do the work as good or better.

As far as guitars? China makes cheap guitars. They can also make AMAZING guitars. It's all in what the parent company is willing to spend to achieve the desired result. If Dean asked for a Chinese manufacturer to make a guitar with the quality and playability of one of their high end USA built guitars, they could do it. The cost would be higher than someone is willing to pay however because it's made in China. Someone once said, but this isn't verbatim since it's been a few years (and I don't remember who said it) "We make our guitars in Tampa, but we make our money in China".... That's a tough pill to swallow.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:43 am

Has anyone here worked with the Chinese here in the States or abroad? I'm not talking about one or fifty Chinese people? I'm talking about a larger group that consists as a work force for a company?
By work force I mean the daily laborers that are hands on-not management?

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

Exit13 wrote:

Has anyone here worked with the Chinese here in the States or abroad? I'm not talking about one or fifty Chinese people? I'm talking about a larger group that consists as a work force for a company?
By work force I mean the daily laborers that are hands on-not management?

I'm somewhat confused by your questions? By questions I might mean statements?

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:54 am

cgibsong002 wrote:

Exit13 wrote:

Has anyone here worked with the Chinese here in the States or abroad? I'm not talking about one or fifty Chinese people? I'm talking about a larger group that consists as a work force for a company?
By work force I mean the daily laborers that are hands on-not management?

I'm somewhat confused by your questions? By questions I might mean statements?

Well, I scrolled up top to see what you have brought into this conversation and if you think for one second that there are too many people in China to be paid well then you are very mistaken. It's way more than that. The approach is not new, it's very clearly laid out, and it's been around a very long time.
So I am guessing you haven't worked in depth with that culture as a whole?

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 14458

Not to change the subject, but...........

Where the hell is the OP?
Did he show up just to fart in the crowded room at the party, only to stand outside the door and watch everyone inside scramble, point fingers and argue?

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

Exit13 wrote:

cgibsong002 wrote:

Exit13 wrote:

Has anyone here worked with the Chinese here in the States or abroad? I'm not talking about one or fifty Chinese people? I'm talking about a larger group that consists as a work force for a company?
By work force I mean the daily laborers that are hands on-not management?

I'm somewhat confused by your questions? By questions I might mean statements?

Well, I scrolled up top to see what you have brought into this conversation and if you think for one second that there are too many people in China to be paid well then you are very mistaken. It's way more than that. The approach is not new, it's very clearly laid out, and it's been around a very long time.
So I am guessing you haven't worked in depth with that culture as a whole?

I don't think you're going to find anyone in here who has worked in depth with the chinese culture as a whole?

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 12247 Location: PEORIA ILLINOIS

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Brave Dave wrote:

People love to paint Chinese manufacturing in the worst possible light but the fact is that, for the most part, none of it's true. Almost
I asked Mick Donner about this subject. He worked for Dean Guitars a few years ago and was instrumental (no pun intended) in a lot of the development at Peavey years ago. He travels to China on a regular basis, working directly with the factories. Here's what Mick has to say about "slave labor" in China

all of the factories I have worked with have better dust collection (hence better air quality) than we had at the original Peavey guitar plant. The workers don't make much but they don't need much. They probably make anywhere from $10 to $20 per day but they're given uniforms for work (laundered at the company's expense), 3 squares per shift, lodging if they need it, daycare and preschool. I know that it doesn't seem like a lot of money but you have to remember that something like one of those rubber Nike watches that cost $60 here can be bought in China for under $3. The Chinese have the fastest growing middle class on the planet. You just don't get that [if your factory is] depending on slave labor. Usually people who talk a lot of trash about China are also people who've never owned a passport.

..

This is all very true. I know some people that work with Chinese manufactures and their quality control and accuracy in making products can rival anyone on the planet. That iPhone in your pocket? Made in China. That MacBook? Made in China. That 3D TV you're watching? Made in China. In fact most things around your house are.... Wait for it.... Made in China. (Unless you live under a rock). People complain about slave labor and China this or China that with guitars and "Buy American" when they are technically surrounded by Chinese made goods in their own homes and are most likely typing their complaints on a Chinese made computer. Ridiculous....

I do however agree that manufacturing should be brought back to North America for economical reasons but to point the finger at China is kinda pointless. It's like when you get work done on your house. You shop around for the best contractor for the price (unless you can do the work yourself). If you find an awesome contractor in your local area which happens to be higher rent area who is willing do do the job for $60,000 and then find a contractor equally as talented who lives in an area that's lower rent and able to do the job for $40,000 because their living expenses are lower...? It's obvious who the choice is. The Americas need to find a way to lower production costs of goods without tarnishing quality of life for the working public. That's not likely to happen anytime soon however with industrial nations such as China willing to do the work as good or better.

As far as guitars? China makes cheap guitars. They can also make AMAZING guitars. It's all in what the parent company is willing to spend to achieve the desired result. If Dean asked for a Chinese manufacturer to make a guitar with the quality and playability of one of their high end USA built guitars, they could do it. The cost would be higher than someone is willing to pay however because it's made in China. Someone once said, but this isn't verbatim since it's been a few years (and I don't remember who said it) "We make our guitars in Tampa, but we make our money in China".... That's a tough pill to swallow.

holy s#%t. dont you dare point out common sense. you might start a trollathon.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:44 am

cgibsong002 wrote:

Exit13 wrote:

cgibsong002 wrote:

Exit13 wrote:

Has anyone here worked with the Chinese here in the States or abroad? I'm not talking about one or fifty Chinese people? I'm talking about a larger group that consists as a work force for a company?
By work force I mean the daily laborers that are hands on-not management?

I'm somewhat confused by your questions? By questions I might mean statements?

Well, I scrolled up top to see what you have brought into this conversation and if you think for one second that there are too many people in China to be paid well then you are very mistaken. It's way more than that. The approach is not new, it's very clearly laid out, and it's been around a very long time.
So I am guessing you haven't worked in depth with that culture as a whole?

I don't think you're going to find anyone in here who has worked in depth with the chinese culture as a whole?

I banged a chinese once. It was pretty in depth. Wink

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

BLOODROOT wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Brave Dave wrote:

People love to paint Chinese manufacturing in the worst possible light but the fact is that, for the most part, none of it's true. Almost
I asked Mick Donner about this subject. He worked for Dean Guitars a few years ago and was instrumental (no pun intended) in a lot of the development at Peavey years ago. He travels to China on a regular basis, working directly with the factories. Here's what Mick has to say about "slave labor" in China

all of the factories I have worked with have better dust collection (hence better air quality) than we had at the original Peavey guitar plant. The workers don't make much but they don't need much. They probably make anywhere from $10 to $20 per day but they're given uniforms for work (laundered at the company's expense), 3 squares per shift, lodging if they need it, daycare and preschool. I know that it doesn't seem like a lot of money but you have to remember that something like one of those rubber Nike watches that cost $60 here can be bought in China for under $3. The Chinese have the fastest growing middle class on the planet. You just don't get that [if your factory is] depending on slave labor. Usually people who talk a lot of trash about China are also people who've never owned a passport.

..

This is all very true. I know some people that work with Chinese manufactures and their quality control and accuracy in making products can rival anyone on the planet. That iPhone in your pocket? Made in China. That MacBook? Made in China. That 3D TV you're watching? Made in China. In fact most things around your house are.... Wait for it.... Made in China. (Unless you live under a rock). People complain about slave labor and China this or China that with guitars and "Buy American" when they are technically surrounded by Chinese made goods in their own homes and are most likely typing their complaints on a Chinese made computer. Ridiculous....

I do however agree that manufacturing should be brought back to North America for economical reasons but to point the finger at China is kinda pointless. It's like when you get work done on your house. You shop around for the best contractor for the price (unless you can do the work yourself). If you find an awesome contractor in your local area which happens to be higher rent area who is willing do do the job for $60,000 and then find a contractor equally as talented who lives in an area that's lower rent and able to do the job for $40,000 because their living expenses are lower...? It's obvious who the choice is. The Americas need to find a way to lower production costs of goods without tarnishing quality of life for the working public. That's not likely to happen anytime soon however with industrial nations such as China willing to do the work as good or better.

As far as guitars? China makes cheap guitars. They can also make AMAZING guitars. It's all in what the parent company is willing to spend to achieve the desired result. If Dean asked for a Chinese manufacturer to make a guitar with the quality and playability of one of their high end USA built guitars, they could do it. The cost would be higher than someone is willing to pay however because it's made in China. Someone once said, but this isn't verbatim since it's been a few years (and I don't remember who said it) "We make our guitars in Tampa, but we make our money in China".... That's a tough pill to swallow.

holy s#%t. dont you dare point out common sense. you might start a trollathon.

Only those living in the woods like the uni-bomber dare troll me on this lest they be crazy and or hypocritical. I can definitely see someone looking for a cause to grab on to just wanting yet another lame internet fight having an issue with it... Wait for it.... Wait for it Laughing

You know some good ole' Lanning hate is coming. Laughing

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:13 am

mahly wrote:

Another thing to consider, is that those "meager wages" actually buy a lot of stuff over there as the cost of living is MUCH cheaper than in the USA.

That's not true. I've bought stuff at WalMart that was cheaper than some of the crap made in Thailand that they sold to tourists there.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:15 am

SRH wrote:

bassmantim71 wrote:

I know that imported Cort guitars have gathered tons of heat for their piss poor work conditions...

All Dean's that say "Made in Indonesia" on the back of the headstock are made by Cort. This exact topic is why I will never buy an Indonesian Dean.

+1

I'm done buying Deans period.

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:16 am

cgibsong002 wrote:

not saying it's right... but a lot of those people wouldn't have jobs if conditions weren't like that and if we weren't buying from them. there are unfortunately too many people there to be paid at reasonable wages. something to think about.

i'm sick of the buy USA only crap

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:21 am

SRH wrote:

This subject was covered not long ago in this thread:

http://www.deanguitars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1473005&highlight=&sid=e8cd28bce6a6f1d7fe344ec2c50d7d81#1473005

I found it interesting it popped up at my reply. Laughing

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:25 am

Northwinds wrote:

Dave, I'm not mad. I guess what irked me was that someone who tours a factory only see's what the bosses plan for them to see. The article I posted is more the truth of the plight of Chinese laborers. I still believe that most uneducated labor is not happy but it's all they have. The alternative is to make even less in the fields. The Chinese Govt and the corporation owners know this. Sort of like, well, if you don't want the job, 10 other people are standing in line behind you. I hope someday it changes but to say "they don't need much" is something we would never tolerate here in the US. Everybody wants a better life. I guess that was my point and I certainly have no bone to pick with you

China has the fastest growing population of millionaires and billionaires... that comes at the expense of a large population that gets paid pennies and forced to work long hours and get paid EVEN LESS for working overtime. If people don't see there is something wrong with that picture, then perhaps I am the crazy one Laughing

Well said my friend.

Anyway here is the BIG PROBLEM......

My first new guitar was my Ibanez V, which I bought in 1977. Before that I had a 57 Les Paul TV, a 67 SG, and a Fender P-bass. The bass was a gift from my mom. I traded it for the SG, and then the Les Paul sadly I don't own any of the 3 any more. God now I think about how Dime didn't want to trade his ML his dad bought him, because my mom was bummed out, but I got tired of playing bass.

It has been 35 years since I bought that Ibanez. Many I've read here want a collection as big or bigger than mine. Heck Brad and Dave bought have more than me. So does Gene. But I wouldn't have had what I have now say if I married or participated in the BS dating game. Glad I never did, and many divorced friends of mine told me I was the smart one for never getting hitched up.

But many of the guys here I see don't want to save up for something nice. THEY WANT INSTANT GRATIFICATION. They want to amass 20 guitars in a 5 year period. Well if your wealthy you will not have that problem. The other way is to buy cheap import crap.

Granted you can buy an import and update pups, electronics, frets etc etc, and you'll possibly have a great guitar. I don't believe in that. The Gibsons that I recently bought were all great guitars. Heck I should have waited and bought them all used. I would have saved some money. Most of my collection is of the used variety anyway, other than the Deans.

Joined: 04 Apr 2005 Posts: 2431 Location: Midwest, Sweden

ML Tib wrote:

But many of the guys here I see don't want to save up for something nice. THEY WANT INSTANT GRATIFICATION. They want to amass 20 guitars in a 5 year period.

I do recognise this at so many levels!

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5598 Location: phoenix az.

Brave Dave wrote:

People love to paint Chinese manufacturing in the worst possible light but the fact is that, for the most part, none of it's true. Almost
I asked Mick Donner about this subject. He worked for Dean Guitars a few years ago and was instrumental (no pun intended) in a lot of the development at Peavey years ago. He travels to China on a regular basis, working directly with the factories. Here's what Mick has to say about "slave labor" in China

all of the factories I have worked with have better dust collection (hence better air quality) than we had at the original Peavey guitar plant. The workers don't make much but they don't need much. They probably make anywhere from $10 to $20 per day but they're given uniforms for work (laundered at the company's expense), 3 squares per shift, lodging if they need it, daycare and preschool. I know that it doesn't seem like a lot of money but you have to remember that something like one of those rubber Nike watches that cost $60 here can be bought in China for under $3. The Chinese have the fastest growing middle class on the planet. You just don't get that [if your factory is] depending on slave labor. Usually people who talk a lot of trash about China are also people who've never owned a passport.

..

there u have it.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5598 Location: phoenix az.

and then there are people with kids who just cant blow 1500 on a usa guitar.im sure ill catch alot of crap for saying this but i for one am happy for imports or else ur average person couldn't afford a decent axe.DUCKS!

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

ML Tib wrote:

Northwinds wrote:

Dave, I'm not mad. I guess what irked me was that someone who tours a factory only see's what the bosses plan for them to see. The article I posted is more the truth of the plight of Chinese laborers. I still believe that most uneducated labor is not happy but it's all they have. The alternative is to make even less in the fields. The Chinese Govt and the corporation owners know this. Sort of like, well, if you don't want the job, 10 other people are standing in line behind you. I hope someday it changes but to say "they don't need much" is something we would never tolerate here in the US. Everybody wants a better life. I guess that was my point and I certainly have no bone to pick with you

China has the fastest growing population of millionaires and billionaires... that comes at the expense of a large population that gets paid pennies and forced to work long hours and get paid EVEN LESS for working overtime. If people don't see there is something wrong with that picture, then perhaps I am the crazy one Laughing

Well said my friend.

Anyway here is the BIG PROBLEM......

My first new guitar was my Ibanez V, which I bought in 1977. Before that I had a 57 Les Paul TV, a 67 SG, and a Fender P-bass. The bass was a gift from my mom. I traded it for the SG, and then the Les Paul sadly I don't own any of the 3 any more. God now I think about how Dime didn't want to trade his ML his dad bought him, because my mom was bummed out, but I got tired of playing bass.

It has been 35 years since I bought that Ibanez. Many I've read here want a collection as big or bigger than mine. Heck Brad and Dave bought have more than me. So does Gene. But I wouldn't have had what I have now say if I married or participated in the BS dating game. Glad I never did, and many divorced friends of mine told me I was the smart one for never getting hitched up.

But many of the guys here I see don't want to save up for something nice. THEY WANT INSTANT GRATIFICATION. They want to amass 20 guitars in a 5 year period. Well if your wealthy you will not have that problem. The other way is to buy cheap import crap.

Granted you can buy an import and update pups, electronics, frets etc etc, and you'll possibly have a great guitar. I don't believe in that. The Gibsons that I recently bought were all great guitars. Heck I should have waited and bought them all used. I would have saved some money. Most of my collection is of the used variety anyway, other than the Deans.

So it is the correct thing to do to buy an expensive guitar over cheaper ones, or a few cheaper ones? lol was that a serious statement? in a tough economy you want people to save up for an expensive guitar when they can just buy themselves a cheap one for now and put their money elsewhere?

boy... the common sense in this thread... ouch.

i'm not saying you're wrong for buying a nice USA. if you can afford it, then that's awesome. the point is most people can't, or have other priorities.

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

True Story:

Was at Guitar center maybe a year into playing guitar. I had a Schecter C-1 ($400) Asked the guy at the desk to some me something comparable. Dick pulls a $2500 Gibson Les Paul off the wall and hands it to me.
So I play it and my C-1 back top back on a couple of amps. The Schecter had better pick-ups (for me) better fret work (Gibson's frets were sharp on the side of the neck.) The tuners felt more solid and had less "slop" in the gears.
An hour later (yeah, give me a $2500 guitar when I ask to see stuff I can afford....I'm gonna play it for an hour). I gave him back the Les Paul, and told him I liked MY C-1 better....have a nice day.

Moral of the story: JUST because it's made in USA doesn't mean it's awesome. People in China/Indonesia etc are perfectly capable for doing good work. It's a guitar, NOT a space ship.

Boycotting foreign made guitar will put those people out of a job. If your intensions are to give those jobs to Americans to help OUR economy, GREAT! If your boycott intentions are to HELP those poor souls chained to their bench with whip marks on their backs...I'm betting most will tell you to QUIT helping. By taking the ONLY job they have a shot at, you destroy THIER way of life.

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

people also don't understand the fact that the majority of the time, having manufacturing overseas generates jobs HERE, in the US. So the products are made overseas... yeah well the company is located here in the US and there are people here running that company and working for that company. There are many small and medium sized businesses that rely on overseas manufacturing and US workers... without the cheaper manufacturing prices, these US companies would not be in business.

I work for one of these small businesses, and we wouldn't have jobs if the manufacturing wasn't done overseas.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10589 Location: Canada

From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/30/opinion/chang-chinese-factory-workers/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Armitage wrote:

From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/30/opinion/chang-chinese-factory-workers/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Which goes to show, determination trumps being satisfied with your place in life. It's the same everywhere. Too often people make excuses for their place in life but any very successful person who worked their way up from nothing will tell you that you have to have a vision and look past your current state and project where you want to be. I don't feel bad for someone working in a guitar factory in China... They put themselves in the factory in China. It's not slave labor.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:27 pm

cgibsong002 wrote:

So it is the correct thing to do to buy an expensive guitar over cheaper ones, or a few cheaper ones? lol was that a serious statement? in a tough economy you want people to save up for an expensive guitar when they can just buy themselves a cheap one for now and put their money elsewhere?

boy... the common sense in this thread... ouch.

i'm not saying you're wrong for buying a nice USA. if you can afford it, then that's awesome. the point is most people can't, or have other priorities.

It's not a matter of correctness or common sense. Yes other people have other priorities. To me having a wife or a girlfriend was never a priority, so I can afford better guitars.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:39 pm

mahly wrote:

True Story:

Was at Guitar center maybe a year into playing guitar. I had a Schecter C-1 ($400) Asked the guy at the desk to some me something comparable. Dick pulls a $2500 Gibson Les Paul off the wall and hands it to me.
So I play it and my C-1 back top back on a couple of amps. The Schecter had better pick-ups (for me) better fret work (Gibson's frets were sharp on the side of the neck.) The tuners felt more solid and had less "slop" in the gears.
An hour later (yeah, give me a $2500 guitar when I ask to see stuff I can afford....I'm gonna play it for an hour). I gave him back the Les Paul, and told him I liked MY C-1 better....have a nice day.

Moral of the story: JUST because it's made in USA doesn't mean it's awesome. People in China/Indonesia etc are perfectly capable for doing good work. It's a guitar, NOT a space ship.

Boycotting foreign made guitar will put those people out of a job. If your intensions are to give those jobs to Americans to help OUR economy, GREAT! If your boycott intentions are to HELP those poor souls chained to their bench with whip marks on their backs...I'm betting most will tell you to QUIT helping. By taking the ONLY job they have a shot at, you destroy THIER way of life.

And yes I've played some crap USA guitars in Las Vegas, but it wasn't because they were manufactured that way. They were bad because the merchant didn't bother to keep their instruments in a climate controlled environment, which caused sharp frets on the neck.

I'm not buying a product because I feel sorry for someone. I boycott products because an owner has taken the road that he will make more profit by putting people out of work in his own country, while exploiting others in a foreign country to maximize that profit. And then not put the money back into his business, making capital improvements. The 70s Japanese guitars were superior because the Japanese cared about the product they were building. They were still owned by Japanese businessmen. What we have here today is American businessman offshoring work because once they shut down their American competition, they will charge what they feel the market will bear. If people keep thinking cheaper is better, fine, don't complain when that American Guitar is no longer available, and complain that the PCS is $1300. (example Robin Guitars that haven't built any since 2010, and has ceased manufacturing guitars).

Look at my sig file. Back in 2002 when the 79 series first came out I ordered 3 from Jayba. The Black and White arrived first. I was not happy with the build. They felt cheap. The wood wasn't dense. Then I received the lame top cherryburst, it was just as bad. I told Elliot it was lacking the flame top, and sent him back the lame top. When I received the cherryburst flame, it was a solid guitar. Maybe one of the last guitars built at the Dean Korean factory. It was solid like the old select series. It was the only ML out of the 4 imports I kept. I'll be parting with the DOA V next for the very same reasons I've stated here.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:44 pm

cgibsong002 wrote:

people also don't understand the fact that the majority of the time, having manufacturing overseas generates jobs HERE, in the US. So the products are made overseas... yeah well the company is located here in the US and there are people here running that company and working for that company. There are many small and medium sized businesses that rely on overseas manufacturing and US workers... without the cheaper manufacturing prices, these US companies would not be in business.

I work for one of these small businesses, and we wouldn't have jobs if the manufacturing wasn't done overseas.

Oh I understand plenty. Ask me if I would rather have a Primal Concrete Sledge made in Asia for $1300, or a Gibson Explorer made in the USA for $100 more?

And I don't think no small business earnings are limited $250,000 per year. Especially a manufacturing operation.

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:24 pm

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Armitage wrote:

From CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/30/opinion/chang-chinese-factory-workers/index.html?iid=article_sidebar

Which goes to show, determination trumps being satisfied with your place in life. It's the same everywhere. Too often people make excuses for their place in life but any very successful person who worked their way up from nothing will tell you that you have to have a vision and look past your current state and project where you want to be. I don't feel bad for someone working in a guitar factory in China... They put themselves in the factory in China. It's not slave labor.

ALL HAIL LANNING!!! THIS is the best point made in this entire thread. Hats off to you, sir.

Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 357 Location: Calgary Alberta

i am seeing a pattern here , I think most people here are getting their information from quasi news programs like 20/20 and their ILK, the EXPOSE THE FULL TRUTH . for the most part these ass clowns would sensationalize their grandmothers bowel movements to make it look like a toilet plugger for the ratings. I have worked many times (oil and gas industry) with the general Chinese labourer and for the most part they have been happy and make enough to support a family and a decent way of life. I am not saying every company out there is innocent , but I know personally that there a lot of North American companies that see themselves above the law too and treat the worker and middle management like crap, Wal-Mart I am looking at you.

as far as Chinese Crap, I have owned instruments made all over the world and have good and bad in all categories, the General Chinese labourer is really no different than anywhere else , you have the folks that take pride and do the best job they can and the lazy cut corner types

Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 1487 Location: Atlanta, GA

These kinds of threads never turn out well. A lot of times the same people are upset that people are making money on the margin of selling someone else's productive energy.

If you want to be upset with something, be upset that China games their currency to keep labor cheap. Being upset with consumers for desiring the best value for their money is going to get you exactly nowhere.

I played a new import Charvel DX1-FR the other day. Aside from the FRS being cheap, I'd be hard pressed on making a case why I should pay $1500 more for the US Jackson variant simply for bragging rights.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:01 am

By the way, I will be taking in this to a repairman to find out why I get ground noise when I zero out my volume.

This happened on my first USA TCML I bought. So far Dean had batted 0-10 in any guitar I've bought from them. Be it lifted frets or bad electronics. Instead of doing the same thing Ian did, and selling them, this will be my last Dean purchase ever.

Considering you can't try out a USA Dean in a store anymore, I'll stick with Gibson. Seems that other than high action on new models. Everything else is fine, be it pickups or whatever. I buy a Gibson, and I'm happy period.

I'm sick and tired of complaining to Elliott about his quality control. The guitar has never been out of my house, and I've only plugged it in 2 or 3 times. Probably a loose ground wire.

Rant over on China vs. USA. this proves USA isn't better. (At least when it comes to Dean).

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 14458

FFS

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:03 am

Jim6 wrote:

FFS

After 12 years we come to "FFS"

Putting it in laymans terms. You see a gorgeous chick and you want to have your way with her, onlly to get her back to your room. Having her undressed to find out it has a dick.

That's the way I feel right now.

Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 795 Location: D.C. Metro

ML Tib wrote:

You know, I've seen this picture a hundred times on here but this is the first time I've noticed you have the power cord for your fan running out into the hallway to an extension cord, which is in turn plugged into a surge protector...a foot from the fan. Laughing

Sorry, that just struck me as funny. Carry on.

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:23 am

[quote="Das Brutalheimmer"]

ML Tib wrote:

You know, I've seen this picture a hundred times on here but this is the first time I've noticed you have the power cord for your fan running out into the hallway to an extension cord, which is in turn plugged into a surge protector...a foot from the fan. Laughing

Sorry, that just struck me as funny. Carry on.

Oh well I don't overload the surge protector. It's plugged into a wall socket, and the TV, and the fan are the only thing on it.

Joined: 30 Apr 2006 Posts: 690 Location: Oklahoma

OK I read through this post and there are many good points on both sides. First with any product foreign or domestic you are going to have hits and misses. One thing we all have to understand is that this country started the major want of overseas products back in the late '70s into the '80s. We went from a nation of producers to consumers and I do not see any way we will get that back.

In the '80s people bitched about the quality of US built cars so a majority of people started buying the cheaper but higher quality Japanese imports. Our manufacturing base did this to use. Yes we had/have many strong unions that did a lot of good for safety for our workers, but they also drove up the prices of the goods they were manufacturing. In the late '80s I worked for the paper industry and got pinked slipped because we could not compete with the paper being imported into the states. I was paid pretty damn good wages back then $12 - $14 per hour (remember late '80s). Our mill had some of the highest quality of printing paper around. All Stephen King books, Playboy mags, and National Geographics mags were printed on our paper, but as my union wages increased so did the cost of our products. We priced our selves out of jobs.

All businesses are out for one thing and that is profits. I doubt we will ever get away at all from imported products ranging from cars, appliances, electronics and yes guitars. Will there always be USA made products? Yes there will be but because of the wages we are paying our workers our products will always be higher. Unless this country goes into a super recession and this forces wages drop drastically we will always have American made products that cost way more than they should, and the shelves will still be filled with imported products closer to the real price that they should be. People will want to save money and they will continue to buy what they can afford.

Ok rant over.

Joined: 17 Jan 2011 Posts: 991 Location: Arid-Zona!

Wow lots of info here.
Bottom line for me... I don't care where it was made, add long as it rocks!
My circle of concern isn't much greater than my circle of influence.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6624 Location: Minnesota

Jerkov wrote:

My circle of concern isn't much greater than my circle of influence.

Words to live by.