Mini Rec loud enough?

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

You tell me.... Don't mind the silly tomfoolery in the playing department Laughing

We were just messing around with some new riffs for a song idea. But this is the Mini Rec 25 into a Marshall 8412 compact 4X12... I'm not using any effects. Also the cab is behind the drums on the opposite side from where the camera is so what you hear is from behind the drums....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5eQFsM4LOs

Joined: 06 May 2007 Posts: 4140 Location: southern ohio

Plenty loud, some may say no but cymbals on a recording like this sound loud as hell, I am sure in the room you are loud enough, as I said in an earlier thread, I can get out over our drummer with an ht5 head and 4x12 when I feel like something different.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

shatteredimg wrote:

Plenty loud, some may say no but cymbals on a recording like this sound loud as hell, I am sure in the room you are loud enough, as I said in an earlier thread, I can get out over our drummer with an ht5 head and 4x12 when I feel like something different.

Yeah the cymbals effect the recording and it's just on my iPhone. That and my cam was on the opposite side of the drums from the cab. So yeah.... It's loud enough! Wink

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

You need at least (4) 4x12 cabs. There is no way you can "feel" the tone without them.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Graunke wrote:

You need at least (4) 4x12 cabs. There is no way you can "feel" the tone without them.

Sounds pretty @#$%&$@.... Laughing

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:41 pm

Very nice. I don't know if it's for me, but when I have a grand I'll definitely test drive one. I love finding the rhythm to a funky drum beat. It's fun Very Happy

Speaking of inspiration, cause of you I tuned up from B to C and it brought my stack ALIVE! it's alive, IT'S ALIVE I TELL YOU! so yeah , thanks Wink

Joined: 09 Jun 2008 Posts: 1528 Location: PAris, France

Not surprising, people have done gigs with 20w Mesa and Marshall power amps for ages. 25 watts doesn't mean low volume. ^^

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5601 Location: phoenix az.

Graunke wrote:

You need at least (4) 4x12 cabs. There is no way you can "feel" the tone without them.

nice!im sure i could get by with a low wattage amp but i like to feel it!I could probably do a gig with my 1/12 cab.But i love rollin in with a full stack or more really gets peoples attention!they ooo and ahhh alot.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

Graunke wrote:

You need at least (4) 4x12 cabs. There is no way you can "feel" the tone without them.

nice!im sure i could get by with a low wattage amp but i like to feel it!I could probably do a gig with my 1/12 cab.But i love rollin in with a full stack or more really gets peoples attention!they ooo and ahhh alot.

As your sound man groans and rolls his eyes Laughing

I get it. I had all this crap before, I just choose not to haul all that around, because it's totally unneccesary. I like to rock a little more efficiently these days.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5601 Location: phoenix az.

if u put them on the stage on the side facing in at you not at the audience the soundman doesn't usually mind.sometimes ill put one cab on the side and one in the front facing back at me with the back of the cab at the audience like my own monitor.Ive played clubs here where the sound guy has no idea how to use the monitors or turn the guitar up in them.Some clubs dont even mic the guitar.I can only remember 2 gigs where i was like yeah i only need one cab for this gig.I can remember alot of gigs playing with bands with combo amps and no mic for guitars. all high end and mids Rolling Eyes

most gigs where im not running through the pa i put a cab on each side of the drums and bass it makes a hudge difference!there's something to be said for stage volume to.cause if ur playing with a little amp live it may sound good 15 to 20 feet out front but all the people close to the stage aren't going to hear you well.i think a decent stage volume is necessary!Not to loud but loud enough.there's something to be said for appearance to
Im sure slayer doesnt need 16 cabs on stage when they are using only 4 on the bottom.im sure zach wyld doesnt need a wall of marshalls when he has a killer pa to play through.it just looks impressive and metal.have you seen the pantera cowboys from hell video where dime has a wall of Randalls with 2 heads each?and its in a club.Nobody ever says dime didnt need 5 stacks to play that club.plus if u have played through a few cabs at once its hella more a presence thing than a volume thing.
If you have one cab you have to stand in one spot to get the full presence of your tone or else ur catching the sides of your cab when running 3 to 4 cabs on stage u can walk around and hear yourself very clearly cause your pushing more air.You can do this with the pa to...that is if your soundman is good and 50%of the ones ive had to deal with were not trained pros but some club owners brother or sister who know how to push sliders up and down and thats it.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10591 Location: Canada

I couldn't imagine getting on stage in front of a paying audience standing in front of a lunch box. You may as well just sit on a stool and look like you're waiting to go home. Like a sprig of parsley on a $50 steak dinner... it's still a $10 steak, and you don't even eat the parsley... it's the presentation. You feel like you got something special.

And who wants a 4 foot sweet spot on stage? Worse, who wants to bend down to HEAR it?

I'll always remember going to check out the new local place, "The Orient Express" way back, and the guys on stage were playing. They were good, much better than us at the time, but the girls started giggling and Debbie said "It looks like their dad's need to get a real job." It didn't matter they were good, they just looked like hacks with a dozen dollars’ worth of pawn shop gear, and were treated like that.

We toured with empty cabs (some with lights in them) and even these 6 inch thick fake Marshall stacks! (I wonder where they ended up? They'd look cool in my basement.)

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

I've got a 30w Orange and it's plenty loud enough to keep up with a full band. Hell, on 2 tubes at half power (7W) this thing is still too loud for night time jamming.

I really like that low wattage tube amps are becoming popular. I have a 6505+ half-stack that is way more than I'll ever need. For years, if you wanted a nice amp that wasn't boutique, you were looking at 50W+. That's way more than the average guy needs. Being able to get sweet, power section distortion at reasonable volumes is one of the best things ever to hit the guitar market.

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

There IS something to be said for headroom.
When I can play over the drums with a super clean tone, then kick in a higher gain channel, and dial the distortion in with the volume control or even how hard I strum, THEN kick in the monster gain channel....at the same volume. That's tough to do when playing a bigger room or outdoors with a low power head.

There are also a LOT more places than many would let on that do NOT run guitars through a PA....yeah, these are usually way low budget shows where one band brings a small PA just for box, and maybe the kick drum.

I look at it as: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. They have volume controls.

That said, in that video, the 25w was enough. Add another guitar, a bass, and a singer, and you MIGHT be wanting for more.

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

mahly wrote:

There IS something to be said for headroom.
When I can play over the drums with a super clean tone, then kick in a higher gain channel, and dial the distortion in with the volume control or even how hard I strum, THEN kick in the monster gain channel....at the same volume. That's tough to do when playing a bigger room or outdoors with a low power head.

There are also a LOT more places than many would let on that do NOT run guitars through a PA....yeah, these are usually way low budget shows where one band brings a small PA just for box, and maybe the kick drum.

I look at it as: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. They have volume controls.

That said, in that video, the 25w was enough. Add another guitar, a bass, and a singer, and you MIGHT be wanting for more.

A lot of that depends on where you get distortion from. If you're using pedals or the preamp, having extra headroom is great. But real power-section distortion is where (to me) the real sweet, smooth distortion is at. Throw some speaker distortion in the mix and you have those creamy tones you hear on older albums.

Around here, it's pretty common for the band to be responsible for the PA. but most bands travel with a PA that's enough to support all of the instruments.

I've played my 30w with another guitar, bass, drums, and vox. and it keeps up fine.

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

I get my distortion from the pre-amp....normally if you try to get your distortion from the power tubes, you don't have a clean channel anymore.
I like to have super clean cleans even when LOUD.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Armitage wrote:

I couldn't imagine getting on stage in front of a paying audience standing in front of a lunch box. You may as well just sit on a stool and look like you're waiting to go home. Like a sprig of parsley on a $50 steak dinner... it's still a $10 steak, and you don't even eat the parsley... it's the presentation. You feel like you got something special.

And who wants a 4 foot sweet spot on stage? Worse, who wants to bend down to HEAR it?

I'll always remember going to check out the new local place, "The Orient Express" way back, and the guys on stage were playing. They were good, much better than us at the time, but the girls started giggling and Debbie said "It looks like their dad's need to get a real job." It didn't matter they were good, they just looked like hacks with a dozen dollars’ worth of pawn shop gear, and were treated like that.

We toured with empty cabs (some with lights in them) and even these 6 inch thick fake Marshall stacks! (I wonder where they ended up? They'd look cool in my basement.)

Dude you are living in a fantasy world... Nothing you said holds water. I have been gigging many years and have NEVER had any issues like you speak of. I have never seen other bands with problems like that either.

mahly wrote:

That said, in that video, the 25w was enough. Add another guitar, a bass, and a singer, and you MIGHT be wanting for more.

If I wanted or NEEDED more I would have more. MY Solo Rec head and my 6505 2X12 combo sit in road cases collecting dust now. I think I have been doing this long enough to know what works Wink

When you add a bass guitar you hear the bass guitar... When you add the singer then there is a singer on top, right where he should be. Why should adding those additional musicians require more power on my part?

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

mahly wrote:

I get my distortion from the pre-amp....normally if you try to get your distortion from the power tubes, you don't have a clean channel anymore.
I like to have super clean cleans even when LOUD.

Not necessarily, as long as both channels have a master volume. You reach a point where you're not really getting any louder, just more distorted. And because of the way cleans cut through a mix, you can use less volume on the cleans and still have the same perceived volume.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

HA!!!

THat's the biggest load of Bull s#%t I've ever heard in my life?

You're telling me that my performance is based on how much s#%t I have on stage?

So, I rock less because I'm not running through a stack?

I LOVE threads like this.

If I had to play clubs that don't mic the amps, I wouldn't f'ing play them. No mic'd amps, equals terrible mix, equals terrible performance.

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:43 pm

I think at irate is refering to back in the day?

Joined: 09 Oct 2009 Posts: 98 Location: columbus, ohio

4 whatever it's worth, in the small clubs i've played in this past yr. nobody has made fun of me & my orange terror alternately driving either my laney 2x12 or randall 4x12 cabs(unmiked): usually they say i'm still 2 loud!

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Graunke wrote:

HA!!!

THat's the biggest load of Bull s#%t I've ever heard in my life?

You're telling me that my performance is based on how much s#%t I have on stage?

So, I rock less because I'm not running through a stack?

I LOVE threads like this.

If I had to play clubs that don't mic the amps, I wouldn't f'ing play them. No mic'd amps, equals terrible mix, equals terrible performance.

Hahah Matt that's about the size of it man Rolling Eyes

You could play without being mic'd dude. In fact we had to do that last night. Guitar and bass were NOT mic'd... It was a small, shith0le, metal club, hole in a bad neighbourhood... The kids were loving it though and were grateful... I did play with my Single Rec 50 last night just in case because I hadn't played un-mic'd out of the jam space (last gig was mic'd) and my Single Rec was OVERKILL. I couldn't even turn it up. I should have trusted my thoughts and used the Mini Rec like I wanted to. The other bands had less volume than I did (the opening act guitarists used Dual Recs, and the headliner had both a JSX halfstack and a Dual Rec Roadster half stack). I still had more volume than they did. I put my 4X12 on top of the road case for the head so it was elevated a few feet off the ground. It was almost too loud and barely turned up. My Mini Rec would have sounded better because I could have at least pushed it a little. Wink

joelafferre wrote:

4 whatever it's worth, in the small clubs i've played in this past yr. nobody has made fun of me & my orange terror alternately driving either my laney 2x12 or randall 4x12 cabs(unmiked): usually they say i'm still 2 loud!

That is because that's reality and how it actually is, not the crazy theories and fantasies as described above Laughing

I like the Terror a lot. I had a 1X12 Terror combo last year. It was a really good amp. I needed a second channel so that's why I held out and went with the Mesa. I did have a TH30 head but found the EQ not to my liking. It was good, don't get me wrong just not what my ears wanted to hear.

Joined: 07 Oct 2008 Posts: 1846 Location: Norfolk, UK

joelafferre wrote:

4 whatever it's worth, in the small clubs i've played in this past yr. nobody has made fun of me & my orange terror alternately driving either my laney 2x12 or randall 4x12 cabs(unmiked): usually they say i'm still 2 loud!

I have used a tiny terror live in the past and it was great.

I get some sniggers when i get my marshall 2061 clone out from its case. It is a small vintage marshall head size. Next to a full sized head it looks tiny. The sniggers disappear when they hear it. The soundguys like it, I like it onstage, and it sounds great.

I can understand the appeal of a 100 watt head live to a point, but I don't see the need. I find its best to keep the sound guy on your side! If the look of your back line is what is appealing about your band then you have serious issues.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

tommygd wrote:

If the look of your back line is what is appealing about your band then you have serious issues.

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:09 pm

Call me crazy but even though I know stacks are not needed , I like to see them on a stage. I saw a band play once whose drummer was a MacBook and each guitarist had a crate 1x12 and some really old peavey 2x12 respectively. Their sound was monstrous and they were instrumentally sound, but the emptiness of the stage was soooooo off putting. I couldn't concentrate on the tunes cause of the nothingness on stage.

Joined: 07 Oct 2008 Posts: 1846 Location: Norfolk, UK

lordkronos187 wrote:

Call me crazy but even though I know stacks are not needed , I like to see them on a stage. I saw a band play once whose drummer was a MacBook and each guitarist had a crate 1x12 and some really old peavey 2x12 respectively. Their sound was monstrous and they were instrumentally sound, but the emptiness of the stage was soooooo off putting. I couldn't concentrate on the tunes cause of the nothingness on stage.

Then the band themselves failed. I know a wall of speakers is attractive, but if the band has a good show and they are proper entertainers then the amps shouldn't be an issue.

Just my opinion obviously Smile

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:25 pm

I dunno man, I've never seen a good sow on an empty stage.

Joined: 07 Oct 2008 Posts: 1846 Location: Norfolk, UK

lordkronos187 wrote:

I dunno man, I've never seen a good sow on an empty stage.

I saw the countdown to extinction tour, no amps on stage at all. Awesome show. That's an extreme example, I still have at least an oversize 2x12 on stage with my 20 watt head, so the stage isn't empty. I just don't need a 100 watt full stack to make people appreciate the show.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Graunke wrote:

tommygd wrote:

If the look of your back line is what is appealing about your band then you have serious issues.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

lordkronos187 wrote:

I dunno man, I've never seen a good sow on an empty stage.

Saw Godsmack live... NO amps on stage... Great show... Saw Megadeth on the Countdown To Extinction tour, no amps on stage... Anthrax on the Persistance of Time tour..... No amps on stage. In fact I think no amps on stage looks great, it's clean and there is more room to perform. Saw a video of Foo Fighters playing live and using a bunh of combo amps to an arena... Looked pretty awesome to me. I went with my wife to see Barenaked Ladies (she loves them, and incidentally they were impressive musicians live)... NO amps on stage... Went to see Rod Stewart 2 years ago, in an arena and the guitarist had a white, Orange combo on stage pointed up at him... Awesome show!

So I can't really feel you on that man...

While my Mini Rec may not look like a monster on stage with my 4X12, I can put it off stage, mic it and and like the HUGE bands I mentioned above I can be cool too Cool

And just like Jeremy from Default told me, and what I love now? I can put my head back in the padded sling bag, throw it over my shoulder and take any means of transportation I want home without worry of where my amp will be... In fact I can just borrow cabs from dudes in bands I'm opening for and just show up with my guitar, pedalboard slung over my left shoulder, Mini Rec over my right shoulder and still have a free hand to grab a beer Wink

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5601 Location: phoenix az.

so funny how many people here think if u use a couple cabs they assume ur blowing everyone's ears out with volume!It isnt about volume its about fat tone!I get compliments on my tone all the time from sound men,guitarists and fans.there's alot of low end coming from my mode four cabs people like it.there's no way ur going to pull off the thick sound i got with a 2/12 cab just isn't going to fly!And i agree an empty stage and tiny little amps just doesn't give the appearance of metal it gives the appearance that Your bands broke an cant afford real gear.Shows are visual as well as a listening experience if they were not people would stay home and listin to mp3s.If they were not all these big bands wouldn't be using a wall of dummy cabs which everybody does.
example i saw hatebreed open for suicidal. hatebreed had a wall of marshalls on each side looked like they were there to destroy everything!and they did!then suicidal came out with 1 vht head and 1 4/10 on each side and an empty stage.It really looked pathetic like hatebreed was the headliner and suicidal was the opening act.appearance in metal is important as well as the music.the bigger spectacle u can put on the better!My band brings a grip of equipment to shows when we show up u know we are there!Were not lazy we can move gear!Takes me about 5 minutes to load my cabs and heads into the truck how hard is that?I figure if people are taking time out of there busy lives to come see my band im going to take time and move some equipment and give them something to look at as well as hear!If i sacraficed my tone and showed up with a tiny head and little cab id feel ridiculous but thats just me i guess!Ive played clubs where the stage is tiny and just used a half stack cause thats all i could fit.but usually i use 2 to 3 cabs.Randy Davis chime in here bro u always bring a ton of equipment to!

what if you show up to an outdoor gig with a 25 watt head and a 2/12 and u find out hey theres no pa support for the guitar?what the hell do u low wattage guys do then?You never know sometimes till u get there.I mean how full is your band going to sound with a 2/12 and no pa support?many shows i was like thank god i have a cab for each side of the stage!

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Here is a clip I just did of the amp at living room volume... It's on 25 mode instead of 10. I like the voicing of the 25 mode over the 10 which has a more pushed feel too it in a classic sense... However, when cranked up to band volume this mode really opens up too.

Riffs are just an assortment of DD stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSiIdytxlCE

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

what if you show up to an outdoor gig with a 25 watt head and a 2/12 and u find out hey theres no pa support for the guitar?what the hell do u low wattage guys do then?You never know sometimes till u get there.I mean how full is your band going to sound with a 2/12 and no pa support?many shows i was like thank god i have a cab for each side of the stage!

What do I do then? I rent a back-line...

First off though I don't go do a gig unprepared... I'm not stupid enough to show up to New Haven Colosseum with a small amp and no support... The question you posed insinuates that some of us aren't smart enough to know what we need, when we need it. You can't really think any one of us will show up to a big outdoor show with no PA support for guitar and just hope for the best... C'mon dude...

Second off, my band has support... I have been gigging with this head and it's enough. Are you saying you don't trust my judgement? Just asking because it seems us low power guys have met quite a bit of resistance. Rememer I have big wattage amps... I'm not using them.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:40 am

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

In fact I can just borrow cabs from dudes in bands I'm opening for and just show up with my guitar, pedalboard slung over my left shoulder, Mini Rec over my right shoulder and still have a free hand to grab a beer Wink

Pure genius right here!!

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

lordkronos187 wrote:

I dunno man, I've never seen a good sow on an empty stage.

Saw Godsmack live... NO amps on stage... Great show... Saw Megadeth on the Countdown To Extinction tour, no amps on stage... Anthrax on the Persistance of Time tour..... No amps on stage. In fact I think no amps on stage looks great, it's clean and there is more room to perform. Saw a video of Foo Fighters playing live and using a bunh of combo amps to an arena... Looked pretty awesome to me. I went with my wife to see Barenaked Ladies (she loves them, and incidentally they were impressive musicians live)... NO amps on stage... Went to see Rod Stewart 2 years ago, in an arena and the guitarist had a white, Orange combo on stage pointed up at him... Awesome show!

So I can't really feel you on that man...

While my Mini Rec may not look like a monster on stage with my 4X12, I can put it off stage, mic it and and like the HUGE bands I mentioned above I can be cool too Cool

And just like Jeremy from Default told me, and what I love now? I can put my head back in the padded sling bag, throw it over my shoulder and take any means of transportation I want home without worry of where my amp will be... In fact I can just borrow cabs from dudes in bands I'm opening for and just show up with my guitar, pedalboard slung over my left shoulder, Mini Rec over my right shoulder and still have a free hand to grab a beer Wink

Seems like the last time I saw Metallica, there were no amps onstage. The last time I saw clutch, Neil Fallon was running through a Tiny Terror with a 2x12 cab, and some combo amp, I think a Fender of some sort.

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Here is a clip I just did of the amp at living room volume... It's on 25 mode instead of 10. I like the voicing of the 25 mode over the 10 which has a more pushed feel too it in a classic sense... However, when cranked up to band volume this mode really opens up too.

slightly off-topic: How does the power modes work on the mini-rec? does it cut out half the tubes or just half the plate voltage?

With the Orange, the half/full-power switch on the front cuts the plate voltage. there's a noticeable difference between the two, but the 2/4 tube switch on the back doesn't make as much of a difference in tone.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

See below...

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

I would never go to a gig, not knowing if I had PA support or not. You should always know what kind of club you're playing, what size of stage you have to work with, and a good idea of what you need to bring. knowing Anything less, is just being lazy. And jumping around like a deaf r#tard infront of a wall of amps, isn't going to fix that.

And if I didn't have PA Support, there would be a good chance that the prices would have been negotiated, so that we could provide our own PA support.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

And the constant remarks about all these bands that have these huge "walls" of speakers and cabs and amps..

You're mentioning the exception, and not the rule.

Most of these groups are a rare bird of talented people who get the chance to perform infront of thousands.

Take a look at most of the bands out there playin clubs with no pa support. They are to loud, with terrible mix, and to much s#%t on stage.

Can you use full stacks in a room that is rated to capacity of 600? Sure. You can do whatever the %$#@! you want. Should you? Probably not.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

redneck wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Here is a clip I just did of the amp at living room volume... It's on 25 mode instead of 10. I like the voicing of the 25 mode over the 10 which has a more pushed feel too it in a classic sense... However, when cranked up to band volume this mode really opens up too.

slightly off-topic: How does the power modes work on the mini-rec? does it cut out half the tubes or just half the plate voltage?

With the Orange, the half/full-power switch on the front cuts the plate voltage. there's a noticeable difference between the two, but the 2/4 tube switch on the back doesn't make as much of a difference in tone.

The Dynawatt feature changes the wattage by switching the tube operation from Pentode to Triode... Both EL84s are still running the same. It does cut volume and clean headroom quite a bit in 10 watt mode but it is still very loud. Mesa states in their manual to not think of it as a "loudness" cut but more of a voicing. Yes it's quieter for sure but the voicing changes too. The mids are sweeter and there is more of a bloom from the power section working harder, thus the architecture of the preamp reacts differently. With the Pushed mode on the green channel for instance, with the gain cranked I get some awesome rock tones in 10 watt that wouldn't sound the same in 25.

redneck wrote:

Seems like the last time I saw Metallica, there were no amps onstage. The last time I saw clutch, Neil Fallon was running through a Tiny Terror with a 2x12 cab, and some combo amp, I think a Fender of some sort.

Last time I saw Clutch he had that same setup. It was plenty and sounded killer!

Graunke wrote:

I would never go to a gig, not knowing if I had PA support or not. You should always know what kind of club you're playing, what size of stage you have to work with, and a good idea of what you need to bring. knowing Anything less, is just being lazy. And jumping around like a deaf r#tard infront of a wall of amps, isn't going to fix that.

And if I didn't have PA Support, there would be a good chance that the prices would have been negotiated, so that we could provide our own PA support.

Yes, we have a manager. She takes care of all that. We know in advance before a show if we're walking into a nightmare or not, if there is a PA or not, or if it's minimal, what it supports. My Mini is the perfect amp for 90% of the shows we play. For the shows where we/I need more...? I bring more.... I have other amps, I can go to my local production place and rent gear.

Graunke wrote:

And the constant remarks about all these bands that have these huge "walls" of speakers and cabs and amps..

You're mentioning the exception, and not the rule.

Most of these groups are a rare bird of talented people who get the chance to perform infront of thousands.

Take a look at most of the bands out there playin clubs with no pa support. They are to loud, with terrible mix, and to much s#%t on stage.

Can you use full stacks in a room that is rated to capacity of 600? Sure. You can do whatever the %$#@! you want. Should you? Probably not.

Last night was the perfect example... Played that small bar with some other bands... The place held maybe 100 people... I brought the 50watt Rec thinking I would need more power since they only mic'd the kick drum, and vocals there. I still couldn't crank it up and we had a great mix despite not being mic'd.... I should have used my Mini so I could have cranked it up more... NO ONE GIVES A FVCK THAT MY AMP LOOKS LIKE A LUNCHBOX... In fact my last show dudes in other bands flocked around it because they thought it was such a killer amp! Twisted Evil

If someone wants to lug around a wall of cabs to support an ego then I'm cool with that, just make sure you clear the damn stage in a timely manner when you're done stroking yourself so I can load my gear on. In years of playing live shows I have NEVER seen someone get flack for a small setup that sounded good. I have seen dudes get slammed for a big setup however. Stage managers rolling their eyes, sound-men impatiently waiting etc.... I steer clear of that nonsesnse.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:59 am

Hmmm I'm torn. You guys have valid arguments on both sides. I can see that low watt rigs can do the job. And rob has a point about fat tone from a stack. I heard my dime amp through a 2x12 once and my reg eq was suddenly shrill, thin, and lifeless. Couldn't believe it. Is it not possible for the right soundguy to eq fatness from the board when you got a 25 watt amp and a 2x12 cab?

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

lordkronos187 wrote:

Hmmm I'm torn. You guys have valid arguments on both sides. I can see that low watt rigs can do the job. And rob has a point about fat tone from a stack. I heard my dime amp through a 2x12 once and my reg eq was suddenly shrill, thin, and lifeless. Couldn't believe it. Is it not possible for the right soundguy to eq fatness from the board when you got a 25 watt amp and a 2x12 cab?

jsut remember this. Of all those walls of tone.

There is only one mic, on one speaker. If they run stereo, it's two.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

lordkronos187 wrote:

Hmmm I'm torn. You guys have valid arguments on both sides. I can see that low watt rigs can do the job. And rob has a point about fat tone from a stack. I heard my dime amp through a 2x12 once and my reg eq was suddenly shrill, thin, and lifeless. Couldn't believe it. Is it not possible for the right soundguy to eq fatness from the board when you got a 25 watt amp and a 2x12 cab?

My tone is still fat through a 4X12... So "Fat" isn't the worry. It's people worrying that someone won't take you seriously because your schlong and wattage size don't match... It's all about ego.

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

lordkronos187 wrote:

Hmmm I'm torn. You guys have valid arguments on both sides. I can see that low watt rigs can do the job. And rob has a point about fat tone from a stack. I heard my dime amp through a 2x12 once and my reg eq was suddenly shrill, thin, and lifeless. Couldn't believe it. Is it not possible for the right soundguy to eq fatness from the board when you got a 25 watt amp and a 2x12 cab?

Speakers can have a huge affect on tone, as well. Not just the number of them.

I would probably argue the other side when it comes to basses, though. There's something to be said for moving a lot of air when dealing with low frequencies.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

redneck wrote:

lordkronos187 wrote:

Hmmm I'm torn. You guys have valid arguments on both sides. I can see that low watt rigs can do the job. And rob has a point about fat tone from a stack. I heard my dime amp through a 2x12 once and my reg eq was suddenly shrill, thin, and lifeless. Couldn't believe it. Is it not possible for the right soundguy to eq fatness from the board when you got a 25 watt amp and a 2x12 cab?

Speakers can have a huge affect on tone, as well. Not just the number of them.

I would probably argue the other side when it comes to basses, though. There's something to be said for moving a lot of air when dealing with low frequencies.

Yeah I don't wanna get into the bass debate. I think a properly made bass rig is essential... I'm just talking about guitar now. And what you said is right... It's about the cab you use for sure. I don't want to rely on the sound guy to EQ me too much. I make sure the tone at the cone is what I want the audience to hear.

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

so we're essentially arguing on what tone is best? Laughing

really? either way works. it's a matter of preference, opinion, and whether or not you feel like lugging around big cabinets.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

cgibsong002 wrote:

so we're essentially arguing on what tone is best? Laughing

really? either way works. it's a matter of preference, opinion, and whether or not you feel like lugging around big cabinets.

it's so much more than that.

I'm to drunk to argue it anymore tonight though. I've had a 12 pack of Coors Light tonight, and righ tnow, I think I need 2 full stacks in my office.

My wife however, disagrees.

Joined: 25 Jun 2008 Posts: 4860 Location: Pennsylvania

Graunke wrote:

cgibsong002 wrote:

so we're essentially arguing on what tone is best? Laughing

really? either way works. it's a matter of preference, opinion, and whether or not you feel like lugging around big cabinets.

it's so much more than that.

I disagree. Very Happy

enjoy the beer buddy. get something better next time though

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

cgibsong002 wrote:

so we're essentially arguing on what tone is best? Laughing

really? either way works. it's a matter of preference, opinion, and whether or not you feel like lugging around big cabinets.

No... Essentially a few people that don't know what they are talking about are arguing me because this is the internet where you can stomp your feet till your blue in the face and it makes no difference. I can start a thread that says I love Maple tops and there will be a few dudes that just have to explain why Korina is just so much better. I can say I like active pickups and all of a sudden I don't know anything because passive is much better. It's like a romper room full of babies crying to get their point across... I just started the thread about the Mini Rec to show that it's fully capable and a great amp and instead of just talking about that, there are a few guys that just have to run off at the mouth about their theories on why this won't work or what "Looks" better... I'll tell you what, I wasn't born yesterday. I think I know what I'm doing so I don't care what anyone else says... The worst part of this thread is me trying to entertain the argument. I should have just stayed mute Wink

It made me no better than those just looking for a debate. I honestly have NOTHING to prove to anyone.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:43 am

All I know is that I freakin want one of those Mini Rec's. Laughing

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

cgibsong002 wrote:

so we're essentially arguing on what tone is best? Laughing

really? either way works. it's a matter of preference, opinion, and whether or not you feel like lugging around big cabinets.

No... Essentially a few people that don't know what they are talking about are arguing me because this is the internet where you can stomp your feet till your blue in the face and it makes no difference. I can start a thread that says I love Maple tops and there will be a few dudes that just have to explain why Korina is just so much better. I can say I like active pickups and all of a sudden I don't know anything because passive is much better. It's like a romper room full of babies crying to get their point across... I just started the thread about the Mini Rec to show that it's fully capable and a great amp and instead of just talking about that, there are a few guys that just have to run off at the mouth about their theories on why this won't work or what "Looks" better... I'll tell you what, I wasn't born yesterday. I think I know what I'm doing so I don't care what anyone else says... The worst part of this thread is me trying to entertain the argument. I should have just stayed mute Wink

It made me no better than those just looking for a debate. I honestly have NOTHING to prove to anyone.

what makes it even funnier is that you are one of the few touring musicians on this site. Too bad you're doing it all wrong Laughing

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

redneck wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

cgibsong002 wrote:

so we're essentially arguing on what tone is best? Laughing

really? either way works. it's a matter of preference, opinion, and whether or not you feel like lugging around big cabinets.

No... Essentially a few people that don't know what they are talking about are arguing me because this is the internet where you can stomp your feet till your blue in the face and it makes no difference. I can start a thread that says I love Maple tops and there will be a few dudes that just have to explain why Korina is just so much better. I can say I like active pickups and all of a sudden I don't know anything because passive is much better. It's like a romper room full of babies crying to get their point across... I just started the thread about the Mini Rec to show that it's fully capable and a great amp and instead of just talking about that, there are a few guys that just have to run off at the mouth about their theories on why this won't work or what "Looks" better... I'll tell you what, I wasn't born yesterday. I think I know what I'm doing so I don't care what anyone else says... The worst part of this thread is me trying to entertain the argument. I should have just stayed mute Wink

It made me no better than those just looking for a debate. I honestly have NOTHING to prove to anyone.

what makes it even funnier is that you are one of the few touring musicians on this site. Too bad you're doing it all wrong Laughing

Well I'm sitting in my bedroom with a bad case of pink eye and a head cold that feels like an elephant just kicked me... So somehow I must have done it wrong... I still played that show last night though Twisted Evil

I just hope I didn't get anyone at the club sick. Laughing

I really think it's just a learned response to an old way of thinking. Look at electric and hybrid cars... There are still people that choose to buy gas guzzlers just, well, because.... It's Rock N' Roll, and that's all about excess. Excessive, sex, drugs and debauchery... So your gear has to be as big and annoying as your image. Laughing

I drive a diesel VW, sip green tea, don't eat red meat, don't drink before a set, don't touch drugs anymore and keep in decent physical shape... By those standards I'm NOT Rock N' Roll... Laughing

Oh and I'm using a 25 watt mini amp, so there is REALLY something wrong with me. Doesn't matter how many shows I play, or how near or far I travel, or how many countries or how many radio outlets play my music. When you come see my band and my little whimpy head is farting through whatever cab I'm using, I'm just not doing it right. We're not good enough to make status quo Laughing

Nonsensical talk right? Yeah, seems to be the trend here.... Laughing

Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 909

IMHO:
100w heads are overkill.....if turned to 10 (or 11 or 20....you get the idea)
25w head is plenty for most anything....save for NEEDING serious volume on a clean channel. The point of a low watt head is to get power tube distortion....no matter what channel your on, you get the power tube distortion....not the best way to get clean cleans.
When NOT mixing to a PA, more speakers USUALLY sound better.
When mixed to a PA, the speaker gains more importance over the cab....but I think ALL else being equal, the 4x12 may sound fuller.
While a 4x12 does LOOK cool, (never really cared how big the amp was....loved my little Genz BEnz ElDiablo 60) you CAN have too much of a good thing. Saw a dude playing at a small local bar (120 capacity at BEST) he had 2 FULL stacks, and looked like an idiot as his tone was pretty lame and thin (probably cuz with 2 100w heads, and 4 cabs the volume needed to be so low for each head, they were barely working).
I will NOT put looks over sound.....EVER!
Many of the bands listed without having amps visible ONSTAGE, still run 100w heads though a 4x12 anyway...some into an ISO cab. ALL of those guys don't move their own $#!T, so it really is a moot point.
My 100w head can get VERY quiet....it comes with a volume knob.
I can switch it to 50w (cutting 2 power tubes) but I would rather keep my head room....personal choice.
End of the day, the point is, for what he uses it for, yes, the mini rec is PLENTY! But there IS a good use for a 100w head. That's why they make both.

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

I drive a diesel VW, sip green tea, don't eat red meat, don't drink before a set, don't touch drugs anymore and keep in decent physical shape... By those standards I'm NOT Rock N' Roll... Laughing

Oh and I'm using a 25 watt mini amp, so there is REALLY something wrong with me. Doesn't matter how many shows I play, or how near or far I travel, or how many countries or how many radio outlets play my music. When you come see my band and my little whimpy head is farting through whatever cab I'm using, I'm just not doing it right. We're not good enough to make status quo Laughing

Jesus. You really are doing it all wrong.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5601 Location: phoenix az.

I draw these for my band thinkin it fits here!

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:39 pm

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

lordkronos187 wrote:

I dunno man, I've never seen a good sow on an empty stage.

Saw Godsmack live... NO amps on stage... Great show... Saw Megadeth on the Countdown To Extinction tour, no amps on stage... Anthrax on the Persistance of Time tour..... No amps on stage. In fact I think no amps on stage looks great, it's clean and there is more room to perform. Saw a video of Foo Fighters playing live and using a bunh of combo amps to an arena... Looked pretty awesome to me. I went with my wife to see Barenaked Ladies (she loves them, and incidentally they were impressive musicians live)... NO amps on stage... Went to see Rod Stewart 2 years ago, in an arena and the guitarist had a white, Orange combo on stage pointed up at him... Awesome show!

So I can't really feel you on that man...

While my Mini Rec may not look like a monster on stage with my 4X12, I can put it off stage, mic it and and like the HUGE bands I mentioned above I can be cool too Cool

And just like Jeremy from Default told me, and what I love now? I can put my head back in the padded sling bag, throw it over my shoulder and take any means of transportation I want home without worry of where my amp will be... In fact I can just borrow cabs from dudes in bands I'm opening for and just show up with my guitar, pedalboard slung over my left shoulder, Mini Rec over my right shoulder and still have a free hand to grab a beer Wink

Ok ok ok , it can be done. But I those are the exception not the rule. Those bands have one thing a lot of others lack, stage presence. I suppose if I saw an empty stage gettin rocked by a band that knows how to put on a show I wouldn't care. But even bands with great music can be hard to watch on an empty stage with no presence. The stack are a nice, not needed, but a nice visual component for me as a fan.

Take opeth for example. I love the s#%t out of opeth. I think they are some of the best musicians alive. But the whole set is hard to sit through when the stage is empty, and they just stand there, and when they aren't standing they are siting. They rock their instruments like gods among men but for all intensive purposes I could be sitting at the bar with my eyes closed. It doesn't captivate me and glue my eyes to the stage.

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5601 Location: phoenix az.

yeah like me above with the microcube that really gives u the metal vibe dont it!

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:07 pm

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

yeah like me above with the microcube that really gives u the metal vibe dont it!

Im such a fence sitter. But what the hell, I see both sides. Big stacks may not be "needed" for a good sound or good show, but they sure do add something attractive to a lot of people.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Those bands are not the exception... You are Laughing

You're nit picking and deciding if a band is good or not to see live based on a back drop... That's like saying a band is better if their album cover is cooler. Rush made an example of this by using washers and dryers as a back drop on tour for a while. It was a statement against EXACTLY what you're describing. Wink

Honestly if YOU have an issue with what type of amp I use live and if I have a stack or not I just don't even want you at my show. You can't enjoy the music and the experience of a live band if you're coocoo enough to worry about what's behind the guitarist. Does it piss you off when a metal drummer uses a double kicker instead of a 2nd bass drum too? Laughing

I bet if we looked, more bands than not use non-stack backgrounds live. At this point it looks like you're arguing for the sake of it. I'm not that guy so I won't respond again to nonsense not having to do with the sound, function or something specifically about this amp... This thread isn't about if it looks cool on stage. It's about it being loud enough to use with a band and maybe other specifics about the amp itself. If you wanna get crazy over if a band is cool or not on silliness start a thread about that. Wink

In all honesty it's actually quite insulting that you would keep up the BS here. I know for a fact that if some big name band's guitarist started this thread about this amp you guys would be all over his stick about how great it is.

Look at the iconic Vox AC30... It's been used live for decades by some of the best and most famous bands ever... No one says sh1t about anyone using that live. And they look cool. What about the Marshall 18 watt 1974X? It's an iconic amp as well and is used live by many.

I don't know why you think you are going to solve by trying to get your point across but just know I'm not going to say... "Hmmm you have a point maybe I'll agree with him" because I think you're very wrong.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:39 pm

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Those bands are not the exception... You are Laughing

You're nit picking and deciding if a band is good or not to see live based on a back drop... That's like saying a band is better if their album cover is cooler. Rush made an example of this by using washers and dryers as a back drop on tour for a while. It was a statement against EXACTLY what you're describing. Wink

Honestly if YOU have an issue with what type of amp I use live and if I have a stack or not I just don't even want you at my show. You can't enjoy the music and the experience of a live band if you're coocoo enough to worry about what's behind the guitarist. Does it piss you off when a metal drummer uses a double kicker instead of a 2nd bass drum too? Laughing

I bet if we looked, more bands than not use non-stack backgrounds live. At this point it looks like you're arguing for the sake of it. I'm not that guy so I won't respond again to nonsense not having to do with the sound, function or something specifically about this amp... This thread isn't about if it looks cool on stage. It's about it being loud enough to use with a band and maybe other specifics about the amp itself. If you wanna get crazy over if a band is cool or not on silliness start a thread about that. Wink

In all honesty it's actually quite insulting that you would keep up the BS here. I know for a fact that if some big name band's guitarist started this thread about this amp you guys would be all over his stick about how great it is.

Look at the iconic Vox AC30... It's been used live for decades by some of the best and most famous bands ever... No one says sh1t about anyone using that live. And they look cool. What about the Marshall 18 watt 1974X? It's an iconic amp as well and is used live by many.

I don't know why you think you are going to solve by trying to get your point across but just know I'm not going to say... "Hmmm you have a point maybe I'll agree with him" because I think you're very wrong.

you must be talkin to the guy behind me Laughing

cause i dont feel that strongly about it Razz

which reminds me. why did you pick that cab to play it out of? no im not going to suggest a different cab Wink

im curious about why you feel it matches it best

Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 724

I personally prefer the look of a clean stage.I think in the future massive cabinets will go the way of the dinosaur.That's just technology improving.I could even see SS taking over tubes if the technology of modeling keeps improving...

Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 8255 Location: Ontario, Canada

Clip sounds great to me. I would have been tripping on that riff for a while. Great playing. Didn't expect anything less Wink

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

lordkronos187 wrote:

which reminds me. why did you pick that cab to play it out of? no im not going to suggest a different cab Wink

im curious about why you feel it matches it best

Hahaha that's an easy answer... It was free Laughing

I had traded some gear a while back and the dude had that 8412 and offered it to me if I threw in the rack case I had brought him the gear in (Which I was gonna do anyway). It's got some bumps and bruises but it sounds decent, is made in England and has good speakers in it. I don't care if it gets kicked around and it's an easy size to carry around. It does the job and if it gets destroyed I'm not at a complete loss. I'm all about used and beat up cabs that do the job. I won't ever buy a new cab for gigging. They are meant to be tossed, dropped, scratched, dinged etc... So no point in paying full price for a new one. (I would for say, a cab used at home though), I'm just talking about for gigging.

'87 sherwood wrote:

Clip sounds great to me. I would have been tripping on that riff for a while. Great playing. Didn't expect anything less Wink

Fun ways to use arpeggios with my drummer who is a closeted Portnoy fanatic lol.. That's if you're referring to the part where I'm jamming with my drummer (There are two clips). We're working on that as a new tune.

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:40 pm

Good of a reason as any Smile

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

lordkronos187 wrote:

Good of a reason as any Smile

If I was going to get whatever cab I wanted I would get the matched cabs for it. 2 of them. At $450 a pop though I'd rather not just yet. For $450 I can get a used Rectifier 4X12 in decent condition. Down the road though I may pick a few of the 1X12 cabs up for gigging when they start showing up used. One slant for side fill and one straight for on the drum riser or something for mid stage. Or maybe just one for home use, but then I may just buy it new for that. I dunno, not a priority right now Wink

Joined: 13 Feb 2004 Posts: 5601 Location: phoenix az.

for me a wall of marshalls looks bad ass but im prone to marshalls.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Looks like Ola jumped on the band wagon as well Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkdMmQxEclo&feature=related

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:21 am

RobBouchardDeanml wrote:

I draw these for my band thinkin it fits here!

This is the same crap, I used to have to put up with my band members in the early 80s. I'd run 2 Marshalls, the 50WT was pushing a 100WT Laney KLIPP head through a preamp out I had installed on my Marshall. Just for good measure I added a 100wt Marshall to push things over the top, to blow out peoples ears.

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:55 am

I figured this thread needed this........

Come on ya gotta love it...........Is it overkill yes but...........It's freaking Awesome to look at .......

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Yeah my ego isn't big enough to support that kind of setup. Maybe one day when I have people working for me I'll have a wall of Mesa cabs. I'm not setting that crap up though, so till I do, it just isn't happening Wink

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:21 pm

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Yeah my ego isn't big enough to support that kind of setup. Maybe one day when I have people working for me I'll have a wall of Mesa cabs. I'm not setting that crap up though, so till I do, it just isn't happening Wink

Dummy cabs ftw Razz

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 12250 Location: PEORIA ILLINOIS

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Looks like Ola jumped on the band wagon as well Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkdMmQxEclo&feature=related

Chris gets all his gear free to demo for his vids. he gives it all back. he has a rec , 5150 and a savage for his own gear though.

Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 10591 Location: Canada

You have to figure what tone you like, big amps sound different (not better or worse, different) then small amps. But if you’re not happy with your tone, it shows.

You also have to be honest with where you're going to play. Don't buy gear hoping one day to play The Gardens, when for the foreseeable future you're going to be playing in your basement or small bars. It’s got to give you your tone where you’re going to actually be playing, not where you hope to one day play.

And stage volume reacts with your guitar, you make like it loud… or not. I love to feel my guitar resonating like it’s ready to burst, while others might rather play in a closet.

For the audience, with the quality of P.A.s now, guitar amp power has nothing to do with the size of the room; you can mike a 6 watt Champ for The Gardens, or plug a Pod in direct... But the rush of big amps behind me is a big inspiration, it’s exciting. And a huge sweet spot means I can move around and still hear “my tone.” And my target audience loved to see it.

As I’ve pointed out before, the entertainment business is a business. The vast majority of musicians who never make any real money really hate that. You can rock and make peanuts, or rock and make some serious money if you take the business part seriously. IMHO, look at your target audience, will they go wow when you storm the stage with a zillion cabs behind you, or will they not care? Did a Meat Dress have anything to do with Lady Gaga’s singing? Or did it just put her in the news between records and tours? Did it work? Did you hear about it? We all laughed, but she was in the paper being talked about, and people wonder what she’ll do next, and are watching her.

Guys like Al DiMeola and Jeff Beck don't use corpse paint, are they wrong? They don't run back and forth either, but they’re not wrong, they’re just not playing Death Metal, whose audience tends to want to see that stuff. Jeff and Al can come out and sit on a stool, and their crowd is happy.

But did Pantera or Judas Priest just come out and sit on a stool?

Or do they even need 18 Marshall stacks behind them? Heck no. Only a couple were ever turned on, but it looked cool as hell and impressed their target audience, who didn’t notice only two lights were on. They just went wow! That’s part of their show, their entertainment package. I didn’t even see any mikes in front of the cabs, they were probably just stage fill, with iso cabs below stage to the P.A.

Pick one; A hot girlfriend who’s great in bed, loves you to death and can cook like a chef, or an ugly one who’s great in bed, loves you to death and can cook like a chef… Sadly, in the real world, image sells. We all like to think our big heart will win us all the hot chicks, or our talent will make us lots of money… then we see all the hot chicks with handsome guys with money, and extremely talented guitarists still living at home with their mom… in their ‘50s. Hi M.A.B.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

It's funny that you're talking like I have no idea what the music business is about. I have toured quite a bit and am working on bigger and better things for my current project. What you say makes some sense in the way that you're stating the obvious but it's just not how things are with regards to the "Business". You have your opinion based on facts from a time when you were doing whatever it was you did. I am basing my facts on the music business as it is today. And as it is today, no one bases anything on a wall of speakers behind you. The rest you say about stage volume and such is all personal preference. I have played in bands were we used in-ear monitoring systems so stage volume is a NON ISSUE. Honestly Armitage, I wonder where your info comes from sometimes. When was the last time you were out on the road, or on a big stage? I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but you are talking to me like I don't know what I'm talking about. Arguably I can prove everything I have said and I know how to use my gear. You're just stating things based on... I dunno, info that's easy to regurgitate from reading any number of forums across the internet from guys that "had a dream" once... Let's just give that a rest there dude. Your analogy to "sitting on stools" is really not how it is or was.

Bands these days are going away from how it was back in the day. Walls of speakers give way to back drops... Big amps give way to better PA systems, in-ear monitoring and lower wattage amps. In fact in the last 5 years, ONLY 3 bands I have seen had a wall of speakers... That was OZZY (with Gus), BLS and LOG. I can name many other big name metal acts that played with no more than 1 half stack or a completely clean stage... These are bands that are living in the current market and their on stage reality trumps your forum theories. Things have changed.

Joined: 03 May 2008 Posts: 6625 Location: Minnesota

I did a show sitting on a stool once. Threw me back out at work that day. Was a wreck.

Could barely walk, and had to slide out of my truck when I got to the gig. But the show must go on.

Now that's rock and roll!

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

After I got hit by a car a few years ago and had 2 surgeries I was unable to walk for a few months. I played 4 festivals from a stool... The first 2 I had to be carried onto the stage by stage-hands... No on complained.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

At rehearsal last night I did a side by side comparison with my 6505 2X12 combo, which is 60 watts. The 6505 got lost in the mix and was thin sounding turned half way up, which is more volume than you should have to use on a 60watt tube amp... The Mini Rec through, through my Marshall 8412 buried it. It was not only louder it had more useful tone and it cut through the mix better. Also I didn't have it turned up as loud as the 6505... Final summation? the Mini Rec is a BAD ASS MO FO!!!! Twisted Evil

Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 1827 Location: KY

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

It's funny that you're talking like I have no idea what the music business is about. I have toured quite a bit and am working on bigger and better things for my current project. What you say makes some sense in the way that you're stating the obvious but it's just not how things are with regards to the "Business". You have your opinion based on facts from a time when you were doing whatever it was you did. I am basing my facts on the music business as it is today. And as it is today, no one bases anything on a wall of speakers behind you. The rest you say about stage volume and such is all personal preference. I have played in bands were we used in-ear monitoring systems so stage volume is a NON ISSUE. Honestly Armitage, I wonder where your info comes from sometimes. When was the last time you were out on the road, or on a big stage? I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but you are talking to me like I don't know what I'm talking about. Arguably I can prove everything I have said and I know how to use my gear. You're just stating things based on... I dunno, info that's easy to regurgitate from reading any number of forums across the internet from guys that "had a dream" once... Let's just give that a rest there dude. Your analogy to "sitting on stools" is really not how it is or was.

Bands these days are going away from how it was back in the day. Walls of speakers give way to back drops... Big amps give way to better PA systems, in-ear monitoring and lower wattage amps. In fact in the last 5 years, ONLY 3 bands I have seen had a wall of speakers... That was OZZY (with Gus), BLS and LOG. I can name many other big name metal acts that played with no more than 1 half stack or a completely clean stage... These are bands that are living in the current market and their on stage reality trumps your forum theories. Things have changed.

I think Pantera was the last band I saw with a big wall of speakers. I haven't seen more than a half stack on stage in years. Of course, I don't go to big arena shows, either. Most of the bands I see are in smaller clubs

Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 5320 Location: DOA #07-01193

Played one of those yesterday. Had to drive an hour to do so. I love the Mini Recs. Put one on layaway. I'll be getting it out of layaway when I get my Christmas bonus.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Bullet wrote:

Played one of those yesterday. Had to drive an hour to do so. I love the Mini Recs. Put one on layaway. I'll be getting it out of layaway when I get my Christmas bonus.

Awesome bro! Welcome to the club!

Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 5320 Location: DOA #07-01193

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Bullet wrote:

Played one of those yesterday. Had to drive an hour to do so. I love the Mini Recs. Put one on layaway. I'll be getting it out of layaway when I get my Christmas bonus.

Awesome bro! Welcome to the club!

Yeah I'm glad to be back in the Mesa club. I miss the Nomad I had, and stupidly traded away. So the mini was a no brainier. Since I was looking at getting a used Dual, but it's kind of overkill for just jamming in my room and with friends occasionally.

But I'm making better money now. So I'm gonna slowly build my dream rig. I got all the geets I want. So I'm focusing on amps and effects. I'm going to A/B between my Bandmaster for cleans and the Mini for distorted tones. All I need now is a good a/b switch(open to recommendations on that don't deal with very many of them at work), rotovibe, a phaser, then I'll have everything I need/want.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Bullet wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Bullet wrote:

Played one of those yesterday. Had to drive an hour to do so. I love the Mini Recs. Put one on layaway. I'll be getting it out of layaway when I get my Christmas bonus.

Awesome bro! Welcome to the club!

Yeah I'm glad to be back in the Mesa club. I miss the Nomad I had, and stupidly traded away. So the mini was a no brainier. Since I was looking at getting a used Dual, but it's kind of overkill for just jamming in my room and with friends occasionally.

But I'm making better money now. So I'm gonna slowly build my dream rig. I got all the geets I want. So I'm focusing on amps and effects. I'm going to A/B between my Bandmaster for cleans and the Mini for distorted tones. All I need now is a good a/b switch(open to recommendations on that don't deal with very many of them at work), rotovibe, a phaser, then I'll have everything I need/want.

Just wait till you rev it up with a band dude... It's more than ample for that. Like I said last night it dominated my 60watt 6505 combo. It's like Mesa just waited for the right time to strike with the mini to kill other minis lol... Not that other minis are not great, but this, like you said... It's a no brainer! I also find, that for heavy stuff I don't need to boost it like I did on the Single and Dual I had... Get that master up around 11 o Clock and get some nice power tube clipping in there and it's vicious! Twisted Evil

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Bullet wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

Bullet wrote:

Played one of those yesterday. Had to drive an hour to do so. I love the Mini Recs. Put one on layaway. I'll be getting it out of layaway when I get my Christmas bonus.

Awesome bro! Welcome to the club!

Yeah I'm glad to be back in the Mesa club. I miss the Nomad I had, and stupidly traded away. So the mini was a no brainier. Since I was looking at getting a used Dual, but it's kind of overkill for just jamming in my room and with friends occasionally.

But I'm making better money now. So I'm gonna slowly build my dream rig. I got all the geets I want. So I'm focusing on amps and effects. I'm going to A/B between my Bandmaster for cleans and the Mini for distorted tones. All I need now is a good a/b switch(open to recommendations on that don't deal with very many of them at work), rotovibe, a phaser, then I'll have everything I need/want.

Just wait till you rev it up with a band dude... It's more than ample for that. Like I said last night it dominated my 60watt 6505 combo. It's like Mesa just waited for the right time to strike with the mini to kill other minis lol... Not that other minis are not great, but this, like you said... It's a no brainer! I also find, that for heavy stuff I don't need to boost it like I did on the Single and Dual I had... Get that master up around 11 o Clock and get some nice power tube clipping in there and it's vicious! Twisted Evil

Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 1049 Location: charlottle nc

Quote:

At rehearsal last night I did a side by side comparison with my 6505 2X12 combo, which is 60 watts. The 6505 got lost in the mix and was thin sounding turned half way up, which is more volume than you should have to use on a 60watt tube amp... The Mini Rec through, through my Marshall 8412 buried it. It was not only louder it had more useful tone and it cut through the mix better. Also I didn't have it turned up as loud as the 6505... Final summation? the Mini Rec is a BAD ASS MO FO!!!!

The 6505 not sounding as good probably had to do more with 2x12 vs 4x12 than wattage, I use a 4x12 in my band and my other guitar player uses a 2x12 I always sound better and am more easily heard than him even when his volume is way passed mine.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

drewmusicman wrote:

Quote:

At rehearsal last night I did a side by side comparison with my 6505 2X12 combo, which is 60 watts. The 6505 got lost in the mix and was thin sounding turned half way up, which is more volume than you should have to use on a 60watt tube amp... The Mini Rec through, through my Marshall 8412 buried it. It was not only louder it had more useful tone and it cut through the mix better. Also I didn't have it turned up as loud as the 6505... Final summation? the Mini Rec is a BAD ASS MO FO!!!!

The 6505 not sounding as good probably had to do more with 2x12 vs 4x12 than wattage, I use a 4x12 in my band and my other guitar player uses a 2x12 I always sound better and am more easily heard than him even when his volume is way passed mine.

Which is very possibly the case, however it just proves that it's not just about watts. The right cab means everything! My 25 watter through a 4X12 outperforming my 60 watter through it's internal 2X12... And the Peavey was always plenty for gigging and no one tried to refute that... So this just goes to show if you know what I'm saying. Wink

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:50 pm

Scrims....if you don't have a wall of Marshalls...you use these to hide the 25 watt rectifier on a 4x12 and the stage still looks full... Laughing

http://stageonestore.com/index.php/scrims.html

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

Grim Reaper wrote:

Scrims....if you don't have a wall of Marshalls...you use these to hide the 25 watt rectifier on a 4x12 and the stage still looks full... Laughing

http://stageonestore.com/index.php/scrims.html

That's right! Wink

Joined: 11 Mar 2011 Posts: 342

mahly wrote:

I look at it as: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Something I tell my Soldiers often (usually when packing for the field). And I agree in the guitar gear sense, too.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

nomadic wrote:

mahly wrote:

I look at it as: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Something I tell my Soldiers often (usually when packing for the field). And I agree in the guitar gear sense, too.

So what you're saying is....? I don't know what I'm doing? Here's what I'll do... I'll keep using my underpowered mini amp and be happy about it... If you don't like the fact that I use this or think it's not enough power? Well, then don't get one or use one K? Wink

I'll go on enjoying it and playing out live with it while everyone else says it's not the right amp for what I'm doing... While I'm doing it....... Rolling Eyes

Joined: 11 Mar 2011 Posts: 342

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

nomadic wrote:

mahly wrote:

I look at it as: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Something I tell my Soldiers often (usually when packing for the field). And I agree in the guitar gear sense, too.

So what you're saying is....? I don't know what I'm doing? Here's what I'll do... I'll keep using my underpowered mini amp and be happy about it... If you don't like the fact that I use this or think it's not enough power? Well, then don't get one or use one K? Wink

I'll go on enjoying it and playing out live with it while everyone else says it's not the right amp for what I'm doing... While I'm doing it....... Rolling Eyes

Hell no that's not what I'm saying. Look mini amps are all the rage BECAUSE of the obvious - you don't need the power and headroom if you're mic'ed. But he just had a good point - some gigs are small with no big PA's and maybe you need the power. No man, its encouraging to know the smaller MESA is practical for live performance. I don't know if I'll ever gig again, but as a family guy on a budget its good to know a useable MESA rec is only $1K away as opposed to $2K.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

nomadic wrote:

Lanning is Killdozer wrote:

nomadic wrote:

mahly wrote:

I look at it as: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Something I tell my Soldiers often (usually when packing for the field). And I agree in the guitar gear sense, too.

So what you're saying is....? I don't know what I'm doing? Here's what I'll do... I'll keep using my underpowered mini amp and be happy about it... If you don't like the fact that I use this or think it's not enough power? Well, then don't get one or use one K? Wink

I'll go on enjoying it and playing out live with it while everyone else says it's not the right amp for what I'm doing... While I'm doing it....... Rolling Eyes

Hell no that's not what I'm saying. Look mini amps are all the rage BECAUSE of the obvious - you don't need the power and headroom if you're mic'ed. But he just had a good point - some gigs are small with no big PA's and maybe you need the power. No man, its encouraging to know the smaller MESA is practical for live performance. I don't know if I'll ever gig again, but as a family guy on a budget its good to know a useable MESA rec is only $1K away as opposed to $2K.

Right I got that, but when I say it's loud enough, and I know this from ACTUALLY doing it, I don't need someone trying to refute it, especially a person that hasn't tried it. Makes me feel like my opinion isn't worth sh1t. Like I don't know how loud an amp needs to be to be heard on stage. Really feels like it's a waste of my time to give an opinion sometimes because this is how it ends up.... How many times in this thread have I said the amp is loud enough? I rarely ever play somewhere un-mic'd... So firstly I don't really care, but I have and it's loud enough. PERIOD! Wink

Joined: 29 Nov 2003 Posts: 12250 Location: PEORIA ILLINOIS

size of an amp doesn't matter if you have a good P.A. behind you. we opened for disturbed along time ago and the stage monitor guy came up to me and said "you need to either turn down or turn off one of your amplifiers because I'm not turning on the monitors until you do. he made me run my amp on 2 and to prove his point to me, he turned up the monitors so loud on my side all i could hear was guitar. i had to stand in the middle of the stage to hear everyone else for the first song.

i remember firehouse played here a few years ago. they rented 8 marshall jcm800s and 16 cabinets. plugged them all in, turned them on and left them on stand by. ran a pod into the snake and played through the monitors for their amp.

lamb of god played here once through back line gear. used a mark iv combo on both sides of the stage.

Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 13396 Location: Earth

BLOODROOT wrote:

size of an amp doesn't matter if you have a good P.A. behind you. we opened for disturbed along time ago and the stage monitor guy came up to me and said "you need to either turn down or turn off one of your amplifiers because I'm not turning on the monitors until you do. he made me run my amp on 2 and to prove his point to me, he turned up the monitors so loud on my side all i could hear was guitar. i had to stand in the middle of the stage to hear everyone else for the first song.

That's right, when we play the monitor systems can literally tear your head off if you're not careful. In the last 5 years I can name 4 shows where my amp wasn't mic'd and I was prepared for them. So really the conflict here in this thread is a moot point Wink

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:44 am

Seriously here, I run an XXL which has variable wattage 50/75/100 and I usually run it at 50. Wattage does not equal volume.